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gsmith2885
Sep 24, 2009, 4:36 PM
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TJGoSurf wrote: This is the best rap device, of course don't wrap it 5 times, 1-2 times and go. [image]http://www.alpenglow.org/paragliding/writing/wrap.jpg[/image]
In the US Army this is what we are trained to use and our belayer just pulls on the ropethat runs past the hand brake if we slip. The only issues I ever saw were ppl getting there hands to close to the biner and getting caught. If someone got hurt using this most likly the belayer was at fualt. I watched a guy hang from a wall for 30 min hands free with just his belayer holding him while given instruction on how to use this and set up a rope harness. I truely feel sorry for anyone injured but this does work. And if you are worried about weight the guy that was held was close to 200 Lbs and had a 50+ Lbs pack on.
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TJGoSurf
Sep 24, 2009, 4:46 PM
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50lbs of gear? Must be a parakeet op. I weighed 140lbs without gear. I weighed 300lbs with all my gear. And there is no safety.
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gsmith2885
Sep 24, 2009, 4:50 PM
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It was basic training. 50 Lbs was about the max then and I havent done any repelling sence as it dosent pertain to my job. I would love to go again but its not available in my area.
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wonderwoman
Sep 24, 2009, 5:11 PM
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Just did some housekeeping in here in regard to homophobic remarks / personal attacks.
Now back to rappel devices...
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sungam
Sep 24, 2009, 5:14 PM
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Minimizing objective risk, TJ.
The wraparound method is a method for rappelling, but it's certainly not the best method.
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TJGoSurf
Sep 24, 2009, 5:16 PM
Post #31 of 49
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Its the most simple. KISS method is the best to use when climbing.
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sungam
Sep 24, 2009, 6:20 PM
Post #32 of 49
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TJGoSurf wrote: Its the most simple. KISS method is the best to use when climbing.
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binrat
Sep 24, 2009, 7:05 PM
Post #33 of 49
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TJGoSurf wrote: Its the most simple. KISS method is the best to use when climbing.
The "most simplest" is the body rappel. The carabiner wrap is a means where its is low cost for equipment, people doing it need to have minimal training, but the down fall is reduntancy, and the lack of safety. Armys that use it, use it for those reasons. Injuries are at an acceptable risk when money verus training is factored in. They attempt to reduce the risk by having a brake man at the bottom which is not always effective.
binrat
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acorneau
Sep 24, 2009, 7:30 PM
Post #34 of 49
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TJGoSurf wrote: Its the most simple. KISS method is the best to use when climbing.
"Most simple" would be grabbing the rope with your hands and sliding down.
No way in hell I would consider that the "best" method for rappelling.
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TJGoSurf
Sep 24, 2009, 7:36 PM
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sungam wrote: TJGoSurf wrote: Its the most simple. KISS method is the best to use when climbing. I dunno what you mean by "KISS" mthod, but simple does not alwayy equal best. Shoulder belay is a hell of a lot more simple then a grigri, but which would you rather have someone catch you with?
Keep It Simple Stupid.
I've rappelled off doing an arm rappel. Just because I can doesn't mean I will. I am not in a proper posistion to handle all different edges and rocks rappelling off a climbing area.
A wrap around the spine with a locker is a proven method. It works.
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sungam
Sep 24, 2009, 7:59 PM
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TJGoSurf wrote: sungam wrote: TJGoSurf wrote: Its the most simple. KISS method is the best to use when climbing. I dunno what you mean by "KISS" mthod, but simple does not alwayy equal best. Shoulder belay is a hell of a lot more simple then a grigri, but which would you rather have someone catch you with? Keep It Simple Stupid. I've rappelled off doing an arm rappel. Just because I can doesn't mean I will. I am not in a proper posistion to handle all different edges and rocks rappelling off a climbing area. A wrap around the spine with a locker is a proven method. It works.
TJ, you're saying that because a horse and cart is more simple and is a proven method of transportation it's better then a car. It just isn't so.
An ATC is barely any more complicated, but the security and control are far and above that of the wrap method.
There's a reason that only army personnel advocate the use of that method and the masses of experienced climbers all recommend not using it.
The climbers have more experiance then the military personnel, btw.
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TJGoSurf
Sep 24, 2009, 8:04 PM
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I never said it was the best. You said that. And the 10th Mountain Division would like to argue that last part with you.
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sungam
Sep 24, 2009, 8:20 PM
Post #38 of 49
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TJGoSurf wrote: I never said it was the best. You said that.
TJGoSurf wrote: This is the best rap device, of course don't wrap it 5 times, 1-2 times and go.
TJGoSurf wrote: the 10th Mountain Division would like to argue that last part with you.
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binrat
Sep 24, 2009, 8:33 PM
Post #39 of 49
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TJGoSurf wrote: I never said it was the best. You said that. And the 10th Mountain Division would like to argue that last part with you.
TJ, go back and read your posts.
Now talk to the instructors at Jericho Vt about this method.
sungam makes valid points.
binrat
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threebadfish
Sep 24, 2009, 8:36 PM
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TJGoSurf wrote: Its the most simple. KISS method is the best to use when climbing.
Dude... come on. The simplest method is certainly not the "best". It may be a little subjective on whether a grigri, ATC, reverso, etc may be the "best" method but I don't think it's even a question whether the wrap method is the best.
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TJGoSurf
Sep 24, 2009, 8:40 PM
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I don't give a fuck about some instructors. It's been proven, just like your ATC that's why people do it. And you get all huffed up because someone does what you dont like. From now on I will only rappel with the wrap method just to upset you. Because you feel so strongly you have to get in the discussion with me and Magnus, who go way back, hes had my pussy on top of him all night. And not only will I rap with the wrap I will only do it on 1 rope. And possibly with a tied swiss seat, how does that suit you? Are you going to post some more "instructors" for me to ask?
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binrat
Sep 24, 2009, 9:04 PM
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Where do you think 10th Mtn get some of their training from?? Possibly the US Army Mtn Warfare Center in Vt? Maybe possibly? I really don't care if you think its the kiss for rappelling, just trying to show you that there is better and as simple methods out there that are safer.
BTW, for my day job I use it 2-3 days a month, from helos as well as rock and off of the tower.
binrat
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TJGoSurf
Sep 24, 2009, 9:11 PM
Post #43 of 49
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Do you want like a cookie or something that you rap out 2-3 days a month? I do it every 2 days. And I rarely wrap around the biner, it's just so funny watching how agitated you get.
10th Mtn was around way before the US Army Mtn Warfare Center. The warfare center was only established in 1983. So anything else you want to convince me is better?
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binrat
Sep 24, 2009, 9:13 PM
Post #44 of 49
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no cookies, but I'll take a beer.
binrat
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binrat
Sep 24, 2009, 9:24 PM
Post #45 of 49
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TJGoSurf wrote: you rap out 2-3 days a month? I do it every 2 days. And I rarely wrap around the biner, it's just so funny watching how agitated you get.
Not agitated at all, its been attempted by better. Just trying to let you see that there are btter ways and means of rappelling.
binrat
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Guran
Oct 1, 2009, 7:59 AM
Post #47 of 49
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Oh for Bob's sake...
Biner wrap (esp w few wraps) has one major advantage over atc and even munter: it is slightly faster to rig and unrig.
For a climber, that won't add up to anything significant even on a loooong multi rappell, but for a soldier in combat every second spent messing with gear is one second vulnerable to enemy fire and unable to support your team.
Therefore best method for a soldier does not equal best method for a climber.
Now kiss and make up, sisters.
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bigfatrock
Oct 1, 2009, 5:55 PM
Post #48 of 49
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The ole human body is the best.
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binrat
Oct 1, 2009, 7:32 PM
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Guran wrote: Oh for Bob's sake...Therefore best method for a soldier does not equal best method for a climber. Now kiss and make up, sisters.
thats the point that I was trying to get at.
binrat
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