|
johnwesely
Oct 14, 2009, 12:01 PM
Post #26 of 44
(3037 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2006
Posts: 5360
|
p8ntballsk8r wrote: Man my buddy was right when he said there are two types of experienced climbers: snobs and people willing to help.
Assuming you are not a troll, the reason we are not being helpful is that you are a huge liability. You are obviously out there climbing without an even basic grasp on even basic climbing skills. You are going to get yourself killed and ruin access and everyone's day.
|
|
|
|
|
qtm
Oct 14, 2009, 2:52 PM
Post #27 of 44
(3022 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 8, 2004
Posts: 548
|
LoL... there are two types of experienced climbers.
Those that see a clusterf**k in progress and stop and try to prevent the inevitable.
And those that walk away quickly and hope darwin is taking a day off.
|
|
|
|
|
johnwesely
Oct 14, 2009, 2:57 PM
Post #28 of 44
(3018 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2006
Posts: 5360
|
I was out climbing this weekend, and I saw a girl on the route next to me rigging an American Death Triangle at the belay station. I told her that it was dangerous and a serious no no, and she promptly became very pissed off.
|
|
|
|
|
markc
Oct 14, 2009, 3:04 PM
Post #29 of 44
(3016 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2481
|
johnwesely wrote: I was out climbing this weekend, and I saw a girl on the route next to me rigging an American Death Triangle at the belay station. I told her that it was dangerous and a serious no no, and she promptly became very pissed off.
Even when you gently correct people, I've found the initial reaction is often defensive. I try not to take it personally. No one wants to think that they're being careless with their life and those of their friends. Hopefully she reflected on it later and did some further research. At least you did what you could.
|
|
|
|
|
acorneau
Oct 14, 2009, 4:07 PM
Post #30 of 44
(3002 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2008
Posts: 2889
|
johnwesely wrote: I was out climbing this weekend, and I saw a girl on the route next to me rigging an American Death Triangle at the belay station. I told her that it was dangerous and a serious no no, and she promptly became very pissed off.
[Thread drift]
Like everyone else (well, mostly) I understand how the ADT increases forces on the anchor points. We tell people not to do it. Blah, blah, blah. However, I don't see anyone complaining when they are rapping on an ADT from the ubiquitous two ring/bolt anchor systems.
Yes, I know a lot of places have chains/webbing/etc. with a "master point", and some places have the vertical chain/bolt anchors (a la Fixe Trad anchor) but just as many anchor/rap stations have two ring/bolts or some other horizontally-placed anchors/rap hangers.
Are we hypocrites for admonishing people for setting up ADT's in top-rope systems and then go ahead and rap off ADT's ourselves?
Just a thought.
[edit for typo]
(This post was edited by acorneau on Oct 14, 2009, 4:21 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
johnwesely
Oct 14, 2009, 4:26 PM
Post #31 of 44
(2991 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2006
Posts: 5360
|
acorneau wrote: [Thread drift] Like everyone else (well, mostly) I understand how the ADT increases forces on the anchor points. We tell people not to do it. Blah, blah, blah. However, I don't see anyone complaining when they are rapping on an ADT from the ubiquitous two ring/bolt anchor systems. Yes, I know a lot of places have chains/webbing/etc. with a "master point", and some places have the vertical chain/bolt anchors (a la Fixe Trad anchor) but just as many anchor/rap stations have two ring/bolts or some other horizontally-placed anchors/rap hangers. Are we hypocrites for admonishing people for setting up ADT's in top-rope systems and then go ahead and rap off ADT's ourselves? Just a thought. [edit for typo]
When you rappel through horizontal rings. the angle of your triangle is so low that it is not really an issue. At least that is what I read in some book somewhere.
|
|
|
|
|
qtm
Oct 14, 2009, 4:26 PM
Post #32 of 44
(2991 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 8, 2004
Posts: 548
|
Doesn't "Climbing Anchors" 2nd ed book address this issue? I thought it said it was a bad idea in general, but only really dangerous on questionable anchors.
|
|
|
|
|
markc
Oct 14, 2009, 4:36 PM
Post #33 of 44
(2986 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2481
|
Something else to consider are the forces being applied. With rappelling, there's going to be less weight applied than you experience with someone falling.
When rappelling, you're generally working with what's there. When you're building a toprope anchor, you should be bringing enough equipment to do a proper job of it. It's easy enough to rig an anchor without creating the ADT, so why would you intentionally create a system that increases force?
|
|
|
|
|
acorneau
Oct 14, 2009, 5:16 PM
Post #34 of 44
(2970 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2008
Posts: 2889
|
qtm wrote: Doesn't "Climbing Anchors" 2nd ed book address this issue?
I don't own the 2nd edition so someone else will have to confirm that one.
In reply to: I thought it said it was a bad idea in general, but only really dangerous on questionable anchors.
[Devil's advocate] If it's only dangerous on questionable anchors then, assuming bomber anchors, why should we worry about it on top-rope systems? [/DA]
|
|
|
|
|
acorneau
Oct 14, 2009, 5:23 PM
Post #35 of 44
(2962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2008
Posts: 2889
|
markc wrote: Something else to consider are the forces being applied. With rappelling, there's going to be less weight applied than you experience with someone falling.
Some sources* state that rap anchor forces can reach 1,000 pounds. I'd say that's pretty comparable with a top-rope scenario.
In reply to: When rappelling, you're generally working with what's there. When you're building a toprope anchor, you should be bringing enough equipment to do a proper job of it. It's easy enough to rig an anchor without creating the ADT, so why would you intentionally create a system that increases force?
Good logic and I agree. Just stirring the ol' grey matter.
* How to Rappel! http://books.google.com/...e&q=&f=false
|
|
|
|
|
markc
Oct 14, 2009, 5:28 PM
Post #36 of 44
(2958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2481
|
acorneau wrote: qtm wrote: Doesn't "Climbing Anchors" 2nd ed book address this issue? I don't own the 2nd edition so someone else will have to confirm that one. In reply to: I thought it said it was a bad idea in general, but only really dangerous on questionable anchors. [Devil's advocate] If it's only dangerous on questionable anchors then, assuming bomber anchors, why should we worry about it on top-rope systems? [/DA]
There is a higher risk without any clear benefit. That should be reason enough. To draw out your example: If the installed hardware is bomber, anchoring to one bolt is safe. However, if you're wrong about the quality of the bolt the consequences could be catastrophic.
|
|
|
|
|
kachoong
Oct 14, 2009, 5:34 PM
Post #37 of 44
(2954 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 23, 2004
Posts: 15304
|
acorneau wrote: qtm wrote: Doesn't "Climbing Anchors" 2nd ed book address this issue? I don't own the 2nd edition so someone else will have to confirm that one.
I believe it does address this, and states that is really only a problem when "rigged to abysmal primary anchors".
acorneau wrote: In reply to: I thought it said it was a bad idea in general, but only really dangerous on questionable anchors. [Devil's advocate] If it's only dangerous on questionable anchors then, assuming bomber anchors, why should we worry about it on top-rope systems? [/DA]
In a top rope situation you have the bonus of coming back to retrieve your set up. If the bolts are good and you're only rapping down, then threading the rope (through say two metolius rap bolts) in order to leave nothing behind should be considered ok practice.
|
|
|
|
|
markc
Oct 14, 2009, 5:46 PM
Post #38 of 44
(2946 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2481
|
acorneau wrote: markc wrote: Something else to consider are the forces being applied. With rappelling, there's going to be less weight applied than you experience with someone falling. Some sources* state that rap anchor forces can reach 1,000 pounds. I'd say that's pretty comparable with a top-rope scenario. * How to Rappel! http://books.google.com/...e&q=&f=false
That seems like an overstated estimate, even with quite a bit of bouncing. I'd be curious to know the math behind that.
I found the following reprinted from Climbing, which states loads of over 1,000 pounds have been generated from top-rope falls with slack in the system. If the How to Rappel! number is accurate, the force is closer than I would have guessed.
edit - tag
(This post was edited by markc on Oct 14, 2009, 5:48 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
hafilax
Oct 14, 2009, 5:52 PM
Post #39 of 44
(2941 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 3025
|
acorneau wrote: johnwesely wrote: I was out climbing this weekend, and I saw a girl on the route next to me rigging an American Death Triangle at the belay station. I told her that it was dangerous and a serious no no, and she promptly became very pissed off. [Thread drift] Like everyone else (well, mostly) I understand how the ADT increases forces on the anchor points. We tell people not to do it. Blah, blah, blah. However, I don't see anyone complaining when they are rapping on an ADT from the ubiquitous two ring/bolt anchor systems. Yes, I know a lot of places have chains/webbing/etc. with a "master point", and some places have the vertical chain/bolt anchors (a la Fixe Trad anchor) but just as many anchor/rap stations have two ring/bolts or some other horizontally-placed anchors/rap hangers. Are we hypocrites for admonishing people for setting up ADT's in top-rope systems and then go ahead and rap off ADT's ourselves? Just a thought. [edit for typo]
After pulling the rope you're leaving behind gear that is of questionable safety that somebody else will have to deal with which is the bigger issue to me.
|
|
|
|
|
shimanilami
Oct 14, 2009, 5:59 PM
Post #40 of 44
(2938 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 2043
|
markc wrote: Even when you gently correct people, I've found the initial reaction is often defensive. I try not to take it personally. No one wants to think that they're being careless with their life and those of their friends. Hopefully she reflected on it later and did some further research. At least you did what you could.
Thread drift ...
I saw a guy belay his complete neophyte girlfriend up a TR, then drop her in virtual free fall for about 60' before catching her and launching himself up in the process. She actually decked, although pretty lightly. He was laughing his ass off and she was in tears out of fear.
"That was so uncool, dude," I said.
"No one asked you, asshole," he replied.
"Miss, I would never go climbing with that guy again if I were you," I told her. She says nothing, unties, and leaves.
Next thing, he's all pissed off at me, saying I had no business criticizing him, and he wants to fight. Enough people were giving him stink-eye, however, that he eventually dropped it and left.
Yeah. No one likes to be corrected, no matter how much they deserve it. And that guy frickin' deserved it.
|
|
|
|
|
p8ntballsk8r
Oct 14, 2009, 6:59 PM
Post #41 of 44
(2925 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 12, 2009
Posts: 81
|
I thought the ADT is only created when using webbing or a sling to connect the two bolts together and make a masterpoint for the rope to run through.
It is a very common practice to clip the rope through both biners at the top and get lowered down on a sport route. I've always been taught to lower someone very slowly and controllably to avoid jerking and causing exess loads because we never actually know how much the bolts can hold.
Clipping the rope through two biners at the top is obviously safer than just one, even if they were say 2 feet apart (i've never seen them farther than 6inches to a foot) would this impose an ADT and be a safety issue?
|
|
|
|
|
shimanilami
Oct 14, 2009, 7:03 PM
Post #42 of 44
(2920 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 2043
|
I'm ignoring you.
Hear me?
IGNORING YOU!
Like how I ignore you?
Leave me alone.
|
|
|
|
|
subantz
Oct 14, 2009, 7:11 PM
Post #43 of 44
(2916 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 7, 2007
Posts: 1247
|
Hilarious, I have been laughing at this for a good 2 minutes. Histerical
|
|
|
|
|
hafilax
Oct 14, 2009, 7:55 PM
Post #44 of 44
(2903 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 3025
|
shimanilami wrote: I'm ignoring you. Hear me? IGNORING YOU! Like how I ignore you? Leave me alone.
|
|
|
|
|
|
