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TJGoSurf
Oct 17, 2009, 1:49 PM
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So here it is, I am in NC. And people have such a problem with fixed gear. Now I don't really care for retro bolting but what about some rap rings at the top? There are a few routes where the only choice is leave some gear or rap off a 1" tree. Neither are too appealing.
So older climbers, whats your problem? And don't say that's how its always done because people used to climb without any gear, are you doing that?
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lostlazy
Oct 17, 2009, 2:52 PM
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What happens to the gear you leave behind ?
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climboard
Oct 17, 2009, 3:03 PM
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I don't know any climbers who would trust a 1" tree for a rap anchor so methinks you are exaggerating.
Like the other poster asked, where is the gear that others left behind if it is required for rapping?
I believe you are confusing necessary anhors with convenience anchors. Convenient as in "I want to rap from any pitch I choose to climb" versus having to put a bit more effort in to get to the walk-off or established rap route.
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TJGoSurf
Oct 17, 2009, 3:07 PM
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There is an area near us that locals refuse to allow any rap rings. Next time I am there I will grab a picture of the tree. Most routes the top isnt accessible unless you're climbing 5.12 or higher.
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lostlazy
Oct 17, 2009, 3:20 PM
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If the locals believe they are unnecessary, then there is good reason for it I'm sure, and it really doesn't matter what opinions may be stated here, because climbing ethics are localized, and those locals you are referring to and the ones before them have established these ethics for a reason.
Furthermore, if you can not reach the top of your crag, and you want a convenience anchor somewhere in between, that would be unethical to me. But, I don't believe anyone should be bootying your rap anchor, that's just wrong, unless your locals are assuming it is a bail anchor, and take it down for aesthetic reasons. Again goes back to local climbing ethics, and this broad forum doesn't help. Ever try talking to these locals yourself ?
BTW, Those same folks you referred to as climbing with no gear so long ago also typically made sure they topped out.
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TJGoSurf
Oct 17, 2009, 3:25 PM
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Some of the routes don't go all the way to the top.
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lostlazy
Oct 17, 2009, 3:58 PM
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I can't believe I got sucked into this troll...It was early, I wasn't too alert.
I'm gonna go climbing.
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camhead
Oct 17, 2009, 4:37 PM
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Troll or not, I'm going to rant here. As far as I'm concerned, there should be bolted anchors at the top of ALL single pitch trad lines. Trees are getting killed at Paradise Forks because of a lack of bolted anchors. At many areas such as Joshua Tree and City of Rocks the only decent anchor options wind up throwing your rope down into the crack. And at almost all these areas where there is not a walkoff, this results in clusterfucks and crowds at designated rap stations.
The whole phobia against bolted anchors at the top of single pitch trad routes is a relic from the era in which it was assumed that ONE person would lead to the top of a pitch, and then belay a follower up from the top. While this makes sense fo multipitches, it is not conducive to cragging at all, in which one person may want to do a route that nobody else wants to do, or conversely, for a situation in which many people may want to toprope the same pitch.
There, I said it. BOLT THE SINGLE PITCH TARD CARCKS!
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reno
Oct 17, 2009, 5:17 PM
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camhead wrote: Troll or not, I'm going to rant here. As far as I'm concerned, there should be bolted anchors at the top of ALL single pitch trad lines that don't have easily determined walk-offs
If you add the italics, I'd agree with you 100%.
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hafilax
Oct 17, 2009, 5:22 PM
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camhead wrote: Troll or not, I'm going to rant here. As far as I'm concerned, there should be bolted anchors at the top of ALL single pitch trad lines. Trees are getting killed at Paradise Forks because of a lack of bolted anchors. At many areas such as Joshua Tree and City of Rocks the only decent anchor options wind up throwing your rope down into the crack. And at almost all these areas where there is not a walkoff, this results in clusterfucks and crowds at designated rap stations. The whole phobia against bolted anchors at the top of single pitch trad routes is a relic from the era in which it was assumed that ONE person would lead to the top of a pitch, and then belay a follower up from the top. While this makes sense fo multipitches, it is not conducive to cragging at all, in which one person may want to do a route that nobody else wants to do, or conversely, for a situation in which many people may want to toprope the same pitch. There, I said it. BOLT THE SINGLE PITCH TARD CARCKS!
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forkliftdaddy
Oct 17, 2009, 5:59 PM
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A 1" tree? Really? No walk off? No down climb? No way to get to an established rap anchor? Name the crag and the route.
Just become a sport climber, dude. And, whatever you do, do not learn to set your own clean gear anchor and then problem-solve a descent. And NEVER go climbing anywhere there is a walk-off or a communal rap anchor. Never visit Ship Rock, Moore's Wall, Rumbling Bald, Linville Gorge, Seneca Rocks, the Tennessee Wall, Tallulah Gorge, Tuolomne Meadows, the eastern Sierras, the Tetons, the Cascades, Red Rock, Joshua Tree, City of Rocks, Little Cottonwood Canyon, Castle Valley, the Wind River Range, etc.
Just stay at Pilot.
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TarHeelEMT
Oct 17, 2009, 7:00 PM
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TJGoSurf wrote: So here it is, I am in NC. And people have such a problem with fixed gear. Now I don't really care for retro bolting but what about some rap rings at the top? There are a few routes where the only choice is leave some gear or rap off a 1" tree. Neither are too appealing. So older climbers, whats your problem? And don't say that's how its always done because people used to climb without any gear, are you doing that?
Specifically, what areas, and what routes?
Lots of times there is a fixed anchor, but it will be shared by several routes. Sometimes there's a long walk-off. Suck it up and walk off, or if there truly is no anchor, be the guy who leaves behind a few pieces of bomber passive pro to establish the rap anchor (how it's typically done in NC). Bomber passive pro is a heck of a lot cheaper and less scarring than bolting.
If you bolt it, we will chop it.
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TarHeelEMT
Oct 17, 2009, 7:01 PM
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reno wrote: camhead wrote: Troll or not, I'm going to rant here. As far as I'm concerned, there should be bolted anchors at the top of ALL single pitch trad lines that don't have easily determined walk-offsIf you add the italics, I'd agree with you 100%.
I don't. Put in fixed passive pro; it's the North Carolina way.
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TarHeelEMT
Oct 17, 2009, 7:02 PM
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forkliftdaddy wrote: Just stay at Pilot.
+1
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curt
Oct 17, 2009, 7:17 PM
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TarHeelEMT wrote: reno wrote: camhead wrote: Troll or not, I'm going to rant here. As far as I'm concerned, there should be bolted anchors at the top of ALL single pitch trad lines that don't have easily determined walk-offsIf you add the italics, I'd agree with you 100%. I don't. Put in fixed passive pro; it's the North Carolina way.
Perhaps eventually North Carolina will enter the 21st Century.
Curt
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johnwesely
Oct 17, 2009, 7:22 PM
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TarHeelEMT wrote: reno wrote: camhead wrote: Troll or not, I'm going to rant here. As far as I'm concerned, there should be bolted anchors at the top of ALL single pitch trad lines that don't have easily determined walk-offsIf you add the italics, I'd agree with you 100%. I don't. Put in fixed passive pro; it's the North Carolina way.
What is the advantage of fixed passive pro exactly? Fixed is fixed as far as I am concerned. it might as well be bolts with rights. It is not like two nuts and a carabiner or two are less of an eyesore than two nuts.
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TarHeelEMT
Oct 17, 2009, 7:30 PM
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johnwesely wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: reno wrote: camhead wrote: Troll or not, I'm going to rant here. As far as I'm concerned, there should be bolted anchors at the top of ALL single pitch trad lines that don't have easily determined walk-offsIf you add the italics, I'd agree with you 100%. I don't. Put in fixed passive pro; it's the North Carolina way. What is the advantage of fixed passive pro exactly? Fixed is fixed as far as I am concerned. it might as well be bolts with rights. It is not like two nuts and a carabiner or two are less of an eyesore than two nuts.
We bolt, but only when gear, walking off, or walking to a gear anchor is impossible. The (bolted) rap anchor at Sentinel Buttress (Moore's Wall) is an example.
What are the advantages? Well, it's cheaper, just as effective, and leaves no permanent trace if it is to be removed.
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jmeizis
Oct 17, 2009, 7:40 PM
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I only partially agree with that. I think there should only be bolted anchors at the top of some single pitch trad lines. If there is a good gear anchor and an easy walk off then I think it's just a convenience anchor and therefore unnecessary. If it's a really long walk off, or there is a cliff top environment that's getting severely damaged then I'm not opposed to a bolted anchor.
I swap leads on single pitch trad plenty, I usually bring some extra gear in case I don't like where or what someone else placed. Sometimes a person will have to climb twice to get all the gear and then we walk off. This is a minor inconvenience which I think people should just deal with. Same for crowding at designated raps and throwing ropes into cracks. Crowding is an inconvenience which is minor. If you're having problems with cracks eating your ropes...well stop throwing your rope in cracks, carry the rope in your lap when you rap and keep it out of the crack for your partner as well.
The problem I see with having all bolted anchors is a loss of climbing skills. If we don't make people build a gear anchor on single pitch then they won't know how to do it for multi-pitch climbs. Not soon thereafter I can see people saying it's necessary to bolt all the anchors on multipitch trad climbs. I know it's a slippery slope argument, but I think in this context it's pretty valid.
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CrazyPetie
Oct 17, 2009, 7:43 PM
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I think its just a ploy that the NC locals developed to keep visiting climbers to a minimum. The less user friendly your routes are the less people want to travel to climb them. I mean, personally i dont feel like dealing with it, so i guess its working.
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TarHeelEMT
Oct 17, 2009, 7:46 PM
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CrazyPetie wrote: I think its just a ploy that the NC locals developed to keep visiting climbers to a minimum. The less user friendly your routes are the less people want to travel to climb them. I mean, personally i dont feel like dealing with it, so i guess its working.
I spent last weekend dealing with the circus that was the New River Gorge, and while our trad ethic has nothing to do with keeping the crowds away, it certainly is a nice side benefit.
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TarHeelEMT
Oct 17, 2009, 7:51 PM
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jmeizis wrote: The problem I see with having all bolted anchors is a loss of climbing skills. If we don't make people build a gear anchor on single pitch then they won't know how to do it for multi-pitch climbs. Not soon thereafter I can see people saying it's necessary to bolt all the anchors on multipitch trad climbs. I know it's a slippery slope argument, but I think in this context it's pretty valid.
It's absolutely valid. People not knowing what they're doing is no reason to dumb down climbing routes. If you don't know how to do it, either learn how or climb something within your ability.
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camhead
Oct 17, 2009, 7:56 PM
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jmeizis wrote: If you're having problems with cracks eating your ropes...well stop throwing your rope in cracks, carry the rope in your lap when you rap and keep it out of the crack for your partner as well.
this is kind of difficult when you are belaying a follower toprope-style from the ground. What, did you think that I was talking about sitting up at the top of a singlepitch gear anchor, yelling commands into my two-way radio, getting a stiffy every time I think about applying these awesome skills to a multipitch? Fuck that, I want to lower off, sit down, and chill with my friends. By necessity, many gear anchors at places like Jtree and City of Rocks force the rope into the crack, because the crack is the only place there is gear.
In reply to: The problem I see with having all bolted anchors is a loss of climbing skills. If we don't make people build a gear anchor on single pitch then they won't know how to do it for multi-pitch climbs. Not soon thereafter I can see people saying it's necessary to bolt all the anchors on multipitch trad climbs. I know it's a slippery slope argument, but I think in this context it's pretty valid.
That's just stupid. Trying to force someone on a single pitch to "practice" for multipitch makes as much sense as trying to force someone leading trad to run it out to "practice" for soloing.
It's single pitch cragging. It's not wilderness, it's not pure first ascents, and it's sure as hell not a grade VI bigwall, so why treat it as such?
Nice to have you back here pontificating, though, J. At least I know you have not cratered on any 5.10 solos, or gotten flatrocked by an annoyed client yet!
(This post was edited by camhead on Oct 17, 2009, 7:59 PM)
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TarHeelEMT
Oct 17, 2009, 8:24 PM
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TJGoSurf wrote: So here it is, I am in NC. And people have such a problem with fixed gear. Now I don't really care for retro bolting but what about some rap rings at the top? There are a few routes where the only choice is leave some gear or rap off a 1" tree. Neither are too appealing. So older climbers, whats your problem? And don't say that's how its always done because people used to climb without any gear, are you doing that?
But anyway, after the scuffle, the OP has some merit and should be gotten back to.
Like I said before, it would be interesting to know specifically the routes and areas that you're talking about. There's probably a fixed anchor somewhere that just wasn't immediately obvious. Often in NC, many routes will share one fixed rap anchor, and you might have to look at several route descriptions in the guidebook (or ask someone) to find out where it is.
The guys who established most of the routes in North Carolina tried pretty hard to minimize fixed gear, and the result is both aesthetically pleasing and gives lots of opportunity to practice the sort of route finding and movement skills that are necessary at more remote walls. There's just no need for a fixed anchor at the top of every route if you can easily get to one anchor shared by several routes.
(This post was edited by TarHeelEMT on Oct 17, 2009, 8:25 PM)
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jmeizis
Oct 17, 2009, 9:09 PM
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In reply to: Fuck that, I want to lower off, sit down, and chill with my friends.
This is the problem. People just want it to be a social event or whatever like the gym. suck it up and walk down or whatever may be the case.
As for the cracks, I can see situations where a gear anchor could lead to a rope getting eaten but the situation is a rarity and can be alleviated generally through due dilligence, or just suck it up and have someone second the climb. This is from experience having climbed in the S. Platte and Vedauwoo. I can't imagine J-Tree and City of Rocks are that different. That's akin to saying that ropes get stuck on chickenheads in Red Rocks so somebody should knock them all off.
It's not just single pitch, training for multipitch either. If you don't know how to build gear anchors because you're crag is all bolted then what are you gonna do when you go to NC, MN, WI, SD, NY, MA, NH, ME, CT and the many other states that have little to no bolted anchors. I learned how to climb in those places and I'm a better climber for it. It's only since I moved west that I've noticed so much convenience and whining when things weren't convenient. I really don't understand why there are so many bolted anchors on this side of the country. It's like people are just lazy and moronic.
Wanting bolted anchors where gear anchors are perfectly adequate reeks of laziness as much as bolting cracks. It's not pontificating to want to keep the lazy or uneducated from overbolting and destroying crags. Certain places it also raises issues of access.
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camhead
Oct 17, 2009, 9:18 PM
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jmeizis wrote: In reply to: Fuck that, I want to lower off, sit down, and chill with my friends. This is the problem. People just want it to be a social event or whatever like the gym. suck it up and walk down or whatever may be the case.
Whatever, it's cragging dude.
In reply to: If you don't know how to build gear anchors because you're crag is all bolted then what are you gonna do when you go to NC, MN, WI, SD, NY, MA, NH, ME, CT and the many other states that have little to no bolted anchors.
uhhhh... you learn when you climb there. It's really not that hard.
And you keep talking about environmental impact and access being affected. How do you think slings all over the cliff top, exposed roots, and ultimately dead trees will affect access?
Once again, you are trying to contrive a "wilderness" experience where none exists. There is nothing more pure about having to build your own anchor on a fricking one pitch climb.
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