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p8ntballsk8r
Oct 20, 2009, 9:28 PM
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I have 3 nonlocking oval biners only rated to 18kn. Is there any situation that these can safely be used in setting top rope anchors?
Our usual set up is using 2 large pieces of webbing to sling boulders or large, healthy trees, along with a static rope tied around a different big, healthy tree.
The static rope will have a double figure 8 on a bite as the master point with 2 opposite and opposed lockers. The end tied to the tree will be clove hitched to one of the pieces of webbing slung around one boulder, and the other end of the static rope is double figure 8'd around a biner on the other webbing slung around a boulder.
In this type of set up, is there ever an acceptable place to use these weak nonlockers? Currently my only thoughts would be on the masterpoint with another 24+kn locker.
In another setup situation, if we equalized the two webbing anchors with another piece of webbing (two overhands, clip biner inbetween on only 1 line of the webbing) or using a sling, same square knots and a sliding X. could the weaker biner be used here?
Finally, to replace one of the 3 above anchors (2 webbing around bouders, static rope around tree) with a piece of pro.
Is this biner only good for holding a large collection pro or organizing a rack or some nonclimbing purpous?
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kennoyce
Oct 20, 2009, 9:56 PM
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Do you always have to troll like this? I mean seriously, an oval carabiner is for climbing isn't it, what else would you use it for, oh you might want to use if for slacklining which puts a whole lot more force onto it than toproping ever will. Do you have any idea what 18 kN is, its 4000 lbs. Two ovals oposite and opposed will hold over 8000 lbs, if that's not enough for toproping where you might put 400 lbs of force on the anchor then I don't know what is. Seriously, ovals have held many a lead fall, so as long as you know what you're doing, they can obviously be used for setting up a top rope.
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MS1
Oct 20, 2009, 9:58 PM
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Completely unsafe. Non-locking ovals explode when used in anchors. At 3x18kn, the blast will easily take out both you and your belayer.
Which you would know, if you would READ A BOOK rather than asking this question on a forum.
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xtremst80
Oct 20, 2009, 10:10 PM
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MS1
Oct 20, 2009, 10:15 PM
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Nice one. Although in this context, our troll should have some paintball gear on, don't you think?
And anyway, if you get rid of the trolls and the people responding to them, the beginner's forum might just cease to exist. And that would be a huge disservice to the rc.com community.
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shimanilami
Oct 20, 2009, 10:19 PM
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Recently unemployed? 'Cuz it sure seems like you've got a lot of time on your hands.
Good luck, dude.
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bandycoot
Oct 20, 2009, 10:41 PM
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From the Terms of Service:
In reply to: (G) Rockclimbing.com reserves the right to refuse service, or parts of the service, or access to the Rockclimbing.com servers, to anyone for any reason. We enforce this policy to ensure a professional environment for the users of the site. We reserve the right to remove or edit any content or cancel any membership without prior notice and without providing a reason.
Can't one of the mods just delete that account or something? Good trolls are entertaining sometimes. This guy definitely has nothing to contribute, and even waits til his stuff is off the front page to reply and bump it back up. Lame...
(This post was edited by bandycoot on Oct 20, 2009, 10:42 PM)
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patto
Oct 20, 2009, 11:27 PM
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You guys are too keen to call troll and too keen to post usesless posts.
p8ntballsk8r the forces on you top rope will be signifcantly less than 18kN so using them anywhere will be ok. Use them together oppoite and opposed and the'll be plenty strong enough and redundant.
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p8ntballsk8r
Oct 20, 2009, 11:52 PM
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Thanks for the one honest answer here. When trained, I was taught to basically only use 24kn and up locking biners. Probably because we're belaying kids that are not ours and anything that would happen to them would be devistating, as well as many lawsuits to ensue.
Furthermore, they can be used opposite and opposed, would it be safe to use just one in setting the anchor at the top? Sounds like the strength is ok, but how severe is the risk for the gate to open? 95% of the time in this set up, with tension between the webbing, the biner will be floating in space, not near anything that should disturb the gate.
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hafilax
Oct 21, 2009, 12:00 AM
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p8ntballsk8r wrote: Thanks for the one honest answer here. When trained, I was taught to basically only use 24kn and up locking biners. Probably because we're belaying kids that are not ours and anything that would happen to them would be devistating, as well as many lawsuits to ensue. Furthermore, they can be used opposite and opposed, would it be safe to use just one in setting the anchor at the top? Sounds like the strength is ok, but how severe is the risk for the gate to open? 95% of the time in this set up, with tension between the webbing, the biner will be floating in space, not near anything that should disturb the gate. 
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Shintao
Oct 21, 2009, 1:14 AM
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I really really want the name and contact information of whoever trained you. I really think I could learn a lot.
If you want to save weight you could use those little carabiners made for holding keys. 6-10 of those with opposed gates would definitely hold most people in a top roping situation.
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jeepnphreak
Oct 21, 2009, 1:21 AM
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Ill feed the troll.
search ! so far all the question you have asked have been covered a lot
next!
Read a book already.
Freedom of the hills is a goods place to start.
before there was locking biners people used to use two biners with the gates opposed on each anchor. Freedom of the hill and many other book will help you out a lot.
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cilohabmilc
Oct 21, 2009, 1:39 AM
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p8ntballsk8r wrote: Furthermore, they can be used opposite and opposed, would it be safe to use just one in setting the anchor at the top? Sounds like the strength is ok, but how severe is the risk for the gate to open? 95% of the time in this set up, with tension between the webbing, the biner will be floating in space, not near anything that should disturb the gate.
I use a single non-locker a lot when setting up anchors. You're correct in that the chance of the gate being opened is minuscule, however, it can happen. This is where redundancy comes into play. If you have more than one tree/boulder slung you already have redundancy. If by some act of God the gate should open and the biner fail, you still have the other tree to back you up. But the same argument could be made to just use another biner opposite/opposed to add another level of safety. I've worked with kids a lot and would suggest erroring on the safe side.
Also, in most top rope situations you can't see the anchor from where you are belaying. This means that if the gate is being pushed against a stick, rock, etc. you won't notice it. So probably better to use a locker or two non-lockers when you are in a situation where the anchor won't be in sight.
The other thing to mention is that most times the only place you need biners is at the master point. You can tie the webbing straight to the static line and eliminate the question. This takes more time and the use of knots diminishes the strength of the rope (although not a significant issue when top-roping).
Hope that helps.
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knudenoggin
Nov 25, 2009, 11:58 PM
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In the Beginners section, trolls are to be unrecognized as such;
one can be skeptical and pass on commenting, but shooting arrows
at trolls is never in season here.
p8ntballsk8r wrote: The static rope will have a double figure 8 on a bite as the master point with 2 opposite and opposed lockers.
Better to make that a Bowline on a Bight (<-- nb word),
for easier tying, adjustment, & untying; or, better yet, tie
a Bowline WITH a Bight, and with the short bight-tail of the
knot slip it around the twin eyes to lock off -- you get four
diameters of rope through the central crunch zone of this knot
vs. two, even kinder to the rope. (BUT NB: do NOT use these
Bowlines where eyes might be separately loaded/unloaded,
as they can slip, then, in some loadings.)
In reply to: The end tied to the tree will be clove hitched to one of the pieces of webbing ...
Whooooa, nelly! Huh? Clove hitching rope to tape? no-no, don't.
You could employ one of your ovals here, yes, kept "floating" in
tension, unable to hit its gate on anything of mis-orient itself in
some state of slackness.
In reply to: slung around one boulder, and the other end of the static rope is double figure 8'd around a biner on the other webbing slung around a boulder.
Btw, if you are really strapped to this mere trio of 'biners, the anchor
arm to get the last mOval-hican would be the hitch, not the eye
knot (though it, too, isn't kind to the webbing). And you will do fine,
and more adjustably so, with a secured bowline vice the "double
Fig.8" eye knot.
In reply to: In this type of set up, is there ever an acceptable place to use these weak nonlockers? Currently my only thoughts would be on the masterpoint with another 24+kn locker.
Yes, as noted above and asked by you. "Weak" isn't the issue here,
as they are all of equal strength as tested by the application -- i.e.,
they should all be many times stronger than conceivable forces.
If there is some problem, it is because of a manufacturing defect that
renders the given piece fallible, or some peculiar circumstance of rope
wrapping that might open a gate. Opposite-&-Opposed seems surer
of precluding the latter circumstance, if speculating (than a locker coming
unlocked, i.e.).
*kN*
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donald949
Nov 30, 2009, 8:59 PM
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http://chauvinguides.com/Anchoring.PDF
A good start for Anchors. Although it discusses anchors for leading the concepts are basically the same for TR. While these days I use 2 lockers for running the rope through the TR, we used to run the rope trough two non-locking ovals, "reversed" and "opposed".
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lostlazy
Dec 1, 2009, 5:36 AM
Post #16 of 16
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Registered: Mar 29, 2004
Posts: 136
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Tool.
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