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WendenDonkey
Nov 2, 2009, 7:43 PM
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Hi guys and girls,
Hello everybody, this is my first message on Rockclimbing, I come from Italy and I'm spending two months in the New York area for business.
But, of course, not only for business and I went to climb a couple of times to the Gunks.
I decided to write in this forum because of the problems I had here in the East Coast in finding information about climbing areas (a part for the many guides of the Gunks, in which there's pretty much always the same stuff).
I heard about many climbing places that are considered to be secret for some reason. I think it's not fair and correct to keep these many secret spot and don't let them know to the people. I mean it's ok if there are some particular troubles with private properties (and here I know there are a lot of them), but otherwise I don't see why they have to be secret??
Especially considering that there are not many medium-hard routes in the Gunks, and not many rocks in the area.
And nevertheless when American climbers go abroad, for example to Europe to climb they want to climb in the best crags and spots and we don't keep these spots secrets and we do have complete guide.
I think in the climbing community information has to be shared and accessible to all the climbers, not just to locals.
I didn't like such behavior from American climbers and I hope you can change this systems because it's a shame for your climbing community that a foreign climber can access just to a small part of the rocks and I will take the same behavior towards American climbers in Europe.
Best regards,
Matteo DB
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lena_chita
Moderator
Nov 2, 2009, 7:52 PM
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Welcome! And an honest suggestion:
Log off, change your user name to eliminate the Donkey, then come back and watch everyone having fun with it.
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lostlazy
Nov 2, 2009, 8:04 PM
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I can't even begin to point out all the stupidity in the post that not only proves you are not a Euro, but also just a simple troll...
in any case, google " oral tradition "
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WendenDonkey
Nov 2, 2009, 8:15 PM
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I don't think I can change my nickname.
Wenden stays for Wendenstocke: best climbing place in the world for me.
Donkey is for not taking climbing too seriously.
I like this nickname.
I'm not a troll!
And I can prove it, you just need to google part of my nickname and part of my signature it's not that hard!
I'm very disappointed by you answer, I thought East American climbers were more open and friendly.
I could give you many info on alpine climbing in Europe but you know "oral tradition"...that's what I will answer when an American climbers will come to the Alps.
Things can change and oral tradition can become written and available.
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lostlazy
Nov 2, 2009, 8:41 PM
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The linguistics you apply are the first give away...
More open and friendly than what may I ask ? You asked why and I answered, it is in fact long standing oral tradition in the Gunks and many other climbing areas, that keep the crowds down for locals. When said locals meet people they deem have the proper respect and value for the area they are allowed into oral tradition. It isn't about a private club or a popularity contest, on the contrary, it is more about respect than anything. It is at the very core of many climbing area ethics including the Gunks. An experienced climber as yourself should know something about ethics which ultimately, makes this a troll. As for your choice to not disseminate information about the Alps, or whatever, I guess that's your ethic and my loss. When oral tradition becomes written word, the essence of adventure and growth is taken away, especially with guidebooks.
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mojomonkey
Nov 2, 2009, 8:47 PM
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WendenDonkey wrote: Hi guys and girls, Hello everybody, this is my first message on Rockclimbing, I come from Italy and I'm spending two months in the New York area for business. But, of course, not only for business and I went to climb a couple of times to the Gunks. I decided to write in this forum because of the problems I had here in the East Coast in finding information about climbing areas (a part for the many guides of the Gunks, in which there's pretty much always the same stuff). I heard about many climbing places that are considered to be secret for some reason. I think it's not fair and correct to keep these many secret spot and don't let them know to the people. I mean it's ok if there are some particular troubles with private properties (and here I know there are a lot of them), but otherwise I don't see why they have to be secret?? Especially considering that there are not many medium-hard routes in the Gunks, and not many rocks in the area. And nevertheless when American climbers go abroad, for example to Europe to climb they want to climb in the best crags and spots and we don't keep these spots secrets and we do have complete guide. I think in the climbing community information has to be shared and accessible to all the climbers, not just to locals. I didn't like such behavior from American climbers and I hope you can change this systems because it's a shame for your climbing community that a foreign climber can access just to a small part of the rocks and I will take the same behavior towards American climbers in Europe. Best regards, Matteo DB
What is your definition of medium-hard?
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WendenDonkey
Nov 2, 2009, 9:03 PM
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Hi Lostlazy,
More open and friendly than the people I talked with! (and ok I could have been unlucky and asked to the wrong people, but...)
I understand what you say but what do you do with ethics if you can't go climbing?
Which ethics prevent and discourage people from climbing? Just yours, is my answer.
Respect doesn't mean that information is not available, respect means that you can go there and you behave correctly, you don't modify anything and you just climb according to the local style.
But if information is not available how can you climb, how can you improve?
What you're saying it's just that if you know the right people you can climb. I think I respect your ethic, I don't wanna bolt anything just climb trad, but if I don't say who I am, nobody will tells me about other climbing spots a part from trapps and near trapps and millbroke.
I think this kind of ethic is a strong limit for climbing and improvement.
My ethic is that I share what i do with the other cliimbers and how I did my climbs, I give the possibility also to the others to go in beautiful spots and live great experience respecting the rock, the environment and the climbing ethic.
A guidebook or a topo doesn't kill adventure as long as it is written properly.
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mojomonkey
Nov 2, 2009, 9:21 PM
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However you define medium-hard, you should have plenty of climbing to keep you busy in the Trapps since it sounds like you are only climbing during free time on a work trip for two months. Buy the Williams guide for the Trapps first.
You don't need to care about private crags or "secret areas" in that time frame. And those aren't even that hard. Avoiding private issues, there is a thread on gunks.com with info on crags that are legally available.
The discussion about oral tradition above is about Lost City. And you don't really need a local for it. The trail maps available at the visitor center will show you how to get there. I figured it out with a friend on a rainy non-climbing day. You can see it from the Trapps bridge - ask the ranger parked there about it to find out how to get to the lot.
Once there, pick something and try it. I saw lots of chalk, so it didn't have the remote feeling that would have been neat to experience. If the line turned out harder than expected, downclimb. If that is too hard, lower off. It was easy enough to hike around to the top to set up a rope.
Though if you think you can't climb something or improve your climbing without guidebook or topo info, you may need to climb longer to appreciate how that might not be true. Or are trolling.
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welle
Nov 2, 2009, 9:27 PM
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WendenDonkey,
In your ascent log, you only have routes you did in the Near Trapps. Have you climbed at the Trapps? Nears is a smaller area compared to the Trapps. The Trapps have over 300 routes - that are well documented - plenty for for a life-time even for somebody local to the area...
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WendenDonkey
Nov 2, 2009, 9:49 PM
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I have climbed also to the trapps, I just recorded some ascent of yesterday because I wanted to see how you website worked.
I know that I have many pitches to do and they can keep me busy for some time.
And I will also go to Lost city since I finally managed to find information on that. (but how hard it has been!)
What I am discussing is your general behavior and ethics towards making topos and information available that in my opinion is wrong.
There's no adventure in searching for a place that everybody knows where it is and which locals usually climb there. When I'm looking for adventure I go in the mountains, in Pakistan, in Greenland, not looking for a crag or some boulders in New York. Here I am just looking for places to climb.
And I really don't understand why it's so hard and why you're so afraid of people getting there and why you don't want to share information with all the climbers.
We don't have such problems in Europe, maybe it's because we've more rocks, I don't know the reason but I think restrict information availability is a great limit for climbing and it's a pity.
I'm just seriuosly trying to understand your reasons,
Don't you think it's time for a complete guidebook of the area?
What would it happen with that, which kind of problems will it imply?
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rgold
Nov 2, 2009, 9:58 PM
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Matteo, you seem to be mistaken about a number of things.
I heard about many climbing places that are considered to be secret for some reason.
There are virtually no secret climbing areas in the Gunks. Some of the places you may have heard about are illegal, and one or two, primarily Lost City, are undocumented but in no way secret.
Especially considering that there are not many medium-hard routes in the Gunks...
By "medium hard" I suppose you are speaking from a sport-climbing perspective and so referring to 5.12's, in which case what you say is true, at least in a relative sense. There are more than fifty guidebook-listed 5.12's and, I think, three 5.13's in the Gunks. This would keep most people occupied for a while. But I doubt you will suffer from boredom working through the 11's and hard tens. In any case, there is no additional secret cache of "medium-hard" routes being kept from you.
...and not many rocks in the area.
You gotta be joking here.
I didn't like such behavior from American climbers and I hope you can change this systems because it's a shame for your climbing community that a foreign climber can access just to a small part of the rocks and I will take the same behavior towards American climbers in Europe.
A small part of the rocks? You have access and guides to probably 95% of the legal climbing. The undocumented areas like Lost City, although originally left undocumented (which is completely different than being secret) by climber agreement, are now undocumented because the Mohohonk Preserve, which owns the land, has requested it.
European climbing is so regimented and documented that perhaps you have either lost or never experienced the opportunity to confront unknown situations, and therefore have no basis for valuing the preservation of such experiences. Or perhaps the situation in Europe has just narrowed your expectations:
When I'm looking for adventure I go in the mountains, in Pakistan, in Greenland, not looking for a crag or some boulders in New York. Here I am just looking for places to climb.
Wonderful for you that you can just pop over to Pakistan or Greenland, but not everyone has the money and/or time for major wilderness expeditions. Why should you, who are able to enjoy such opportunities, want to restrict local climbing so that analogous experiences are not available to local climbers? Is this really the friendly attitude you claim to exemplify? Because you are just "looking for places to climb," does that mean everyone else should be subject to your desires?
If your issue is with the fact that Lost City has remained undocumented (this represents a tiny fraction of the total number of available climbs), then you may find the following excerpts I wrote in other threads of some interest.
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Lost City is not a secret crag, and it isn't locals-only. Unless you define "local" to mean someone who knows something about Lost City, in which case the notion is a meaningless tautology, there are climbers from all over the world who have climbed at Lost City and certainly many who cannot by even the most extreme stretch be considered local. It is (or perhaps was) simply undocumented, by what was for a long time a near-universal consensus to take one small part of the Gunks and leave it without written descriptions. Although this was definitely the idea of climbers at the time, the Preserve saw value in it and has requested that Lost City not be included in guidebooks.
Although some of the posts here have a hostile tone (a quality by no means restricted to those that favor keeping Lost City as it is though), there has never to my knowledge been any hostility or even reticence about sharing knowledge of Lost City by word of mouth. It isn't a secret and no one is keeping it a secret.
In these days in which routes are increasingly cataloged and equipped, it was, if I may say so, the genius of Shawangunk climbers to set aside a tiny corner of the extensive list of routes, to create, if you will, a Preserve within the Preserve, where climbers have an opportunity, now largely vanished and certainly not in general available without sojourning to remote locales, to enjoy a touch of the unknown flavor of remote climbing in the midst of what may be the most populated climbing area in the country.
Considering the lifetimes of routes already minutely documented and available, I am saddened that there are people whose idea of progress is to eliminate a special gift that the Gunks, in spite of its population density, still has to offer. There is, as far as I can tell, absolutely no greater good served by taking this small section of rock and making it like every other popular crag in the world, and on the other hand a resource that is in many ways absolutely unique appears destined to vanish after all these years of being part of why the Gunks is still a genuine trad climbing destination.
In my opinion, posting a route name and description strikes at the core of what I think is a gift to the climbing public. It wouldn't be the first time, nor will it be the last time, that that public, in what I see as a convulsion of short-sightedness, destroys something precious, all more precious for having been recognized and voluntarily supported for years.
Do people have "free speech rights" to do this? I'm sure they do. The current situation is the result of an entire community embracing what I see as enlightened view and preserving something for future generations, who are more and more circumscribed by the avalanche of information. But it could be that the future generations don't want this gift, they want their grades, their move-by-move beta, their protection ratings, their gear suggestions, and they want them everywhere, all the time. I for one do not believe this. But there are some loud voices demanding "beta to the people," and I can only hope that the wider community has the good sense and vision to resist.
(This post was edited by rgold on Nov 3, 2009, 3:54 AM)
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mojomonkey
Nov 2, 2009, 10:03 PM
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You are coming to another country that established its traditions differently - enjoy the diversity rather than wanting everywhere to be the same. Heck, the traditions vary quite a bit within the country.
If you really were trying to understand Lost City, for example, you no doubt checked out the section for it on this site and the linked discussion for why it is undocumented, right? It includes posts from people with opinions similar to yours. It also mentions a request (policy?) from the Mohonk Preserve (owner's of the land) prohibiting a guide being published for that area.
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qtm
Nov 2, 2009, 10:14 PM
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Did you look at the routes in his ascent log? There's not a lot of 12's and 13's at the Gunks.
To the OP: All the legal areas to climb on the Preserve were recently listed on a thread at gunks.com. Three of them are fully documented (Trapps, Nears, Millbrook). All the others are undocumented areas, meaning there are no published guidebooks.
This is not meant to keep the crags "secret" and "locals only". Lost City is not a secret, the location shown in every guidebook. By local tradition, the outer crags remain undocumented to preserve the sense of adventure that you get by going up to an unknown section of rock and getting your very own "FA".
It doesn't take much to walk to one of the outer crags and climb. On the other hand, since they are officially undocumented, it's not quite as easy to walk up and find 12's and 13's. With a little googling you might be able to get the names of some of the routes and even find some photos of those routes and some overview photos showing where they are. You could also ask people, and there are always people happy to divulge the locations (I sorta know, but since I don't climb that hard, I've only been seeking out moderate routes).
Well, good luck, you might have an easier time being nicer and less argumentative.
(This post was edited by qtm on Nov 2, 2009, 10:18 PM)
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welle
Nov 2, 2009, 10:25 PM
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qtm wrote: Did you look at the routes in his ascent log? There's not a lot of 12's and 13's at the Gunks.
yeah, but as rgold said, there are plenty of 5.11s and fun hard 5.10s...
to the OP: you may want to check out Rumney - it could be more up your alley and speaking of undocumented - the guidebook is out of print and waaay out-dated, but you can find good topo info on mountainproject.com.
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WendenDonkey
Nov 3, 2009, 2:38 PM
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Hi rgold,
Thank you for your explanation of how things work here.
I understand what you say, but still I would have written a guidebook with all the approaches for the "legal" areas, and I'm not just talking about Lost City, I heard a lot of name, such as Double right, triple right, Bond...(I don't remember) and also many other boulder areas.
So, maybe I am wrong, but my impression has been that in the guidebook there was just a few of the legal climbable rocks, not the 95% as you say.
I also disapprove the way you write guidebooks: of course in a guidebook like the one for the gunks you kill all the adventure, there's written the crux and the moves of a pitch, that's a really "onsight killer guide".
I think a good guide should provide just a detailed approach, and pictures of the wall with the list of name and grades and that's it, no verbal comments.
And then at last for me it's so strange and weird and I don't understand all those legal issues you have. In Europe you can climb basically everywhere, of course with the necessary respect, but we don't really have all these trouble with private property. But that's just a consideration, I know it doesn't depend by any climber and you can't do anything for that.
Eventually, I say I may have been too negative with american climbers, because the most of them have been very kind and friendly with me, anyway what I criticize is the general attitude I found in many climbers of the area of giving you information just if you're good at climbing.
You know, also in the gyms it works like this: you suck, so i won't tell you anything. Oh, look, you just sent that V8, so you're good, you can have access to secret spots...
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 3, 2009, 2:51 PM
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Donky. You come off as very negative and a bit of a loudmouth on this post. Allmost exactly like what you would expect of the ugly american running there mouth in europe.
We tend to get a bit defensive when euro trash tells how bad we suck and that we are doing eveything wrong...
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qtm
Nov 3, 2009, 3:09 PM
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WendenDonkey wrote: I understand what you say, but still I would have written a guidebook with all the approaches for the "legal" areas, and I'm not just talking about Lost City, I heard a lot of name, such as Double right, triple right, Bond...(I don't remember) and also many other boulder areas.
All the climbable preserve areas are listed on the Gunks.com thread. Many of them are listed on trail maps available from the preserve or hiking maps you can purchase. Most areas have details online on how to find them since they're popular hiking destinations. The ones that don't like Triple Right and Witches Hole have follow ups in the thread.
In reply to: So, maybe I am wrong, but my impression has been that in the guidebook there was just a few of the legal climbable rocks, not the 95% as you say.
There is a lot of rock out there. But not all has climbable routes or anything worth doing. Table Rock is a legal area (and on the map), but it's more like caving, it's wet and mossy, negative sloping, and really not worth the effort of walking out there for the few routes that are dry. But if you're into that kind of thing, it can be your 'secret' spot.
In reply to: I also disapprove the way you write guidebooks: of course in a guidebook like the one for the gunks you kill all the adventure, there's written the crux and the moves of a pitch, that's a really "onsight killer guide".
There's nothing forcing you to read the entire description. In fact, the first paragraph is there so you can find the route. The next few paragraphs describe the pitch, you don't have to read them. Or you can just use the maps in the back if you really don't want to kill your onsight.
The sense of adventure is why there aren't published guides to Lost City, Bonticou, and other areas.
In reply to: I think a good guide should provide just a detailed approach, and pictures of the wall with the list of name and grades and that's it, no verbal comments.
You can pick up the Swain guide which has much less details, or you can do as I said above and just don't read the descriptions. Or take a magic marker and blacken out all the descriptions.
(This post was edited by qtm on Nov 3, 2009, 3:11 PM)
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shockabuku
Nov 3, 2009, 3:41 PM
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??
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Gmburns2000
Nov 3, 2009, 4:24 PM
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WendenDonkey wrote: I also disapprove the way you write guidebooks: of course in a guidebook like the one for the gunks you kill all the adventure, there's written the crux and the moves of a pitch, that's a really "onsight killer guide".
Get the Swain deathguide. You'll have fewer onsight problems that way.
T2
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kachoong
Nov 3, 2009, 4:34 PM
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Give it a rest.... unrest!
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wonderwoman
Nov 3, 2009, 4:41 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: WendenDonkey wrote: I also disapprove the way you write guidebooks: of course in a guidebook like the one for the gunks you kill all the adventure, there's written the crux and the moves of a pitch, that's a really "onsight killer guide". Get the Swain deathguide. You'll have fewer onsight problems that way. T2
I was gonna recommend the new one with all the pictures and all the wrong grades!
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Gmburns2000
Nov 3, 2009, 4:58 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: WendenDonkey wrote: I also disapprove the way you write guidebooks: of course in a guidebook like the one for the gunks you kill all the adventure, there's written the crux and the moves of a pitch, that's a really "onsight killer guide". Get the Swain deathguide. You'll have fewer onsight problems that way. T2 I was gonna recommend the new one with all the pictures and all the wrong grades!
I don't get the sense that would fix his need for adventure, even though he doesn't like the adventure of finding the adventure. 
The new crappy guidebook actually softens the grades. Swain simply says, "climb here" when he really meant to say "climb way the fuck over there."
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lucander
Nov 3, 2009, 5:07 PM
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Wenden is not a troll, I ran into him in the Nears on Sunday, he and his partner had the Swain guide. Following his information, they drove up to the Mountain House, offered $1, and asked to climb at Skytop. Unceremoniously dispatched, they went to the Nears.
Wenden does not climb like "los Americanos" either. He is a very strong climber but he leads differently than most Gunks climbers. He topropes routes repeatedly, pre places gear, and then leads them. This is an interesting methodology that, for his purposes, seems to work well on difficult routes with anchors that can be reached by other climbs. Far from stirring up an ideological debate, I am intrigued - as I have not seen this approach to traditional climbing before.
As an aside, I do not know what Wenden is doing at a tree-filled, lichen covered, diminutive crag like the Gunks. Given his ability and travels to foreign crags, I would think that Yosemite, Re River Gorge, or Red Rocks would be a more likely destination. Still, welcome to the Gunks!
DL
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WendenDonkey
Nov 3, 2009, 5:15 PM
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Hey,
Thanks for all your suggestions, I have the Swain guide, in which it is also said that it's possible to climb at Skytop while we asked and they didn't allow us to climb there.
Anyway I don't like that guide that much, especially, as I said before the description of the routes.
Can an ascent be considered onsight if you already know where the crux is and maybe you have also some other info on the climb? (I don't know, and I don't care why don't you try to launch the topic on 8a.nu...) But in my opinion it is not a guide well done.
Probably my definition of adventure is different from yours, I accept and respect it.
I Just wanted to express my point of view on some of your habits, and that's all.
I've never wanted to offend anybody and I excuse if I did it without any intention.
I think rgold already provided me a good explanation about your general point of view and I hope I have provided mine.
You should come to Europe sometime to climb, see the differences and tell tell me what you think, I'm also writing a guidebook on some areas of Europe and compare different visions is always a useful experience and can lead to improvement.
I don't think guidebooks can kill adventure if done properly, but of course it also may depend on the climbing context.
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Gmburns2000
Nov 3, 2009, 5:43 PM
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WendenDonkey wrote: Hey, Thanks for all your suggestions, I have the Swain guide, in which it is also said that it's possible to climb at Skytop while we asked and they didn't allow us to climb there. Anyway I don't like that guide that much, especially, as I said before the description of the routes. Can an ascent be considered onsight if you already know where the crux is and maybe you have also some other info on the climb? (I don't know, and I don't care why don't you try to launch the topic on 8a.nu...) But in my opinion it is not a guide well done. Probably my definition of adventure is different from yours, I accept and respect it. I Just wanted to express my point of view on some of your habits, and that's all. I've never wanted to offend anybody and I excuse if I did it without any intention. I think rgold already provided me a good explanation about your general point of view and I hope I have provided mine. You should come to Europe sometime to climb, see the differences and tell tell me what you think, I'm also writing a guidebook on some areas of Europe and compare different visions is always a useful experience and can lead to improvement. I don't think guidebooks can kill adventure if done properly, but of course it also may depend on the climbing context.
I've climbed a fair bit in Europe, and I love the scene there. I'm hoping to hit El Chorro this winter.
The better of the two guides is definitely the Williams book(s). Get those and you'll find them to be much better than Swain. I don't think anyone seriously recommends the Swain guide unless they're trying to have fun with folks. However, because of the misinformation that permeates that book, I would think one would never really know where the crux is, particularly if one has been burned by the Swain guide before.
Sorry if calling you a troll was poor form, it just seemed like it. Unless Lucander and you are the same, since I know he's a half-decent guy (just half though, no more ), I'm gonna trust him.
Climb on dude.
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