|
rock_fencer
Nov 9, 2009, 5:06 PM
Post #1 of 22
(14582 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 7, 2005
Posts: 752
|
My friend and I just finished our first aid climb last week getting tot he top of the 5th pitch of Glass Menagerie in NC. I did alot of the leading and not so much jugging. But my friend had a really hard time jugging the traversing part of the open book and the roof. The main problems seems to be swinging away from the piece, not being able to get the piece out because its weighed below and above once you pass the top ascender. and a whole slew of other issues. He wound up lowering out 5 times or so.
whats your setup for jugging out a roof? Is there a way to prevent swinging once you backclean the piece? We were thinking it may be faster to re-aid the bolt ladder sections on the roof.
Any info would be appreciated. We plan on dialing our system some more, but we didnt have access to a roof to practice on as im in SC and he is in IL.
Cheers
T
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rock_fencer
Nov 9, 2009, 5:42 PM
Post #3 of 22
(14548 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 7, 2005
Posts: 752
|
thanks john, thats a really novel idea. I have never considered buying a book and reading up on the subject. No worries im searching the web too and ive kept an eye on the taco forums by chris.
Im obviously looking for first hand experience in personaly dialed in systems from some of the bigwallers on this site.
cheers
T
|
|
|
|
|
budman
Nov 9, 2009, 5:43 PM
Post #4 of 22
(14548 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 170
|
It's often easier for the second to climb the pitch rather than jugging it. The see saw effect is a pain in the ass when following on jumars. But speed can be attained if mixing both, when one way is easier than the other. Knowing when is the key.
|
|
|
|
|
cclarke
Nov 9, 2009, 6:30 PM
Post #5 of 22
(14508 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 25, 2003
Posts: 160
|
Minimize backcleaning on roofs and traverses and then your second should be able to do basically what you did in moving from piece to piece.
Was it wet up higher on GM? I ran into some wetness at the top of Rowin's Route last week.
|
|
|
|
|
rock_fencer
Nov 9, 2009, 6:41 PM
Post #6 of 22
(14498 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 7, 2005
Posts: 752
|
Yeah pitch 6 was wet but we bailed because of nightfall. I didnt backclean the roof at all, the angle of the rope from each piece was very horizontal.
My partners system wound up being passing both ascenders over the piece one at a time and a gri-gri below the piece. He was having alot of trouble then cleaning the quickdraw off the bolt, or removing the pice of gear.
i only jugged the first pitch and encountered this a little bit as well but it was 5.11 and that in my free climbing range. 5.13 is way out there for both of us so he couldnt free climb the moves. Unless you meant reaiding the pitch.
Sounds like we need practice on this most of all.
|
|
|
|
|
cclarke
Nov 9, 2009, 6:52 PM
Post #7 of 22
(14495 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 25, 2003
Posts: 160
|
I meant basically re-aid the pitch while using frequent back up knots. In some cases, you'll want to just ditch the ascenders for a while because they will just get in the way.
It's going to be a pain no matter what you do but it's usually manageable if you can reach the previous piece while hanging on the next. Sometimes you can use a sling poked through the piece and doubled up, if the piece is fixed, and pull yourself up enough to unclip. Then you just hold onto one end of the sling and away you go. It's a little strenous that way though.
|
|
|
|
|
jkd159
Nov 9, 2009, 11:57 PM
Post #8 of 22
(14448 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 29, 2007
Posts: 64
|
Make it easier on the second by not back cleaning and by not using long draws. Second can either free climb enough to unweight the piece or reverse aid the pitch. Moving ascenders past the piece and lowering out -- as your second did -- also works fine, but is time consuming. cclarke's suggestion for fixed gear is right on. If you expect to be cleaning draws from lots of fixed gear in this situation, get about 12' of 6mm cord and tie one end to your harness. Poke it through the fixed gear, clean your draws, and lower yourself out on a 2:1 (hand over hand usually works fine).
|
|
|
|
|
skiclimb
Nov 10, 2009, 1:32 AM
Post #9 of 22
(14418 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 11, 2004
Posts: 1938
|
Yep don't have 2nd jug on the traverse.. they should just re-aid traverses, cleaning peices after they pass em.
|
|
|
|
|
yetanotherdave
Nov 11, 2009, 3:05 AM
Post #10 of 22
(14327 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 19, 2005
Posts: 243
|
^^^ what he said
Also, using a grigri for self-belay while clip-cleaning is nice, with occasional backup knots. The leader can also back-clean a few placements past bomber fixed gear, so the second can do a long lower-out rather than having to clean more gear.
|
|
|
|
|
charlie.elverson
Nov 11, 2009, 4:08 AM
Post #11 of 22
(14306 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 12, 2009
Posts: 131
|
Say you have a 30 foot or so traverse on hooks with only one or two pieces of pro place on the traverse. how should the second move? I'm assuming in this instance the follower has no hooks as I assume this is pretty typical practice (I've barely started aid climbing in training to get on some big walls).
|
|
|
|
|
whipper
Nov 11, 2009, 5:09 AM
Post #12 of 22
(14285 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 21, 2002
Posts: 241
|
charlie.elverson wrote: Say you have a 30 foot or so traverse on hooks with only one or two pieces of pro place on the traverse. how should the second move? I'm assuming in this instance the follower has no hooks as I assume this is pretty typical practice (I've barely started aid climbing in training to get on some big walls).
if its not a first accent, then there is already a fixed piece there from when the party before dealt with it...
If you are the first accent party, then you leave a piece to lower off on. Does that make any sense?
|
|
|
|
|
yetanotherdave
Nov 11, 2009, 5:11 AM
Post #13 of 22
(14284 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 19, 2005
Posts: 243
|
What/where are the pieces in the traverse? what follows it?
Up until the first pro is simple - the second lowers from the anchor to the first piece (make sure the second has enough rope)
Likewise any fixed gear can be lowered out from.
As whipper said, fixed gear is often found on these pitches, but I wouldn't leave a big cam if that was the only option. Call me cheap...
If the route goes up at the end of the traverse the second could rap back down to clean - then you could just lower out from the gear in the traverse as it's convenient.
Last resort would be following on hooks, but that's slower than jugging if it's a long traverse.
(This post was edited by yetanotherdave on Nov 11, 2009, 5:15 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
skiclimb
Nov 11, 2009, 8:05 AM
Post #14 of 22
(14255 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 11, 2004
Posts: 1938
|
charlie.elverson wrote: Say you have a 30 foot or so traverse on hooks with only one or two pieces of pro place on the traverse. how should the second move? I'm assuming in this instance the follower has no hooks as I assume this is pretty typical practice (I've barely started aid climbing in training to get on some big walls).
No problem ..you have a big blank traverse ...no re-aid..just lower from a fixed peice at beginning of traverse.. scoot butt across and below traverse and jug up to first piece at end of traverse..
obviously cant retrieve fixed peice at beginning..hope you dint have to leave an expensive cam behind.
|
|
|
|
|
rock_fencer
Nov 11, 2009, 5:40 PM
Post #15 of 22
(14211 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 7, 2005
Posts: 752
|
whats the ethics on leaving a piece behind like that? Would it be better to leave a fixed nut if possible or if you have it a piton?
|
|
|
|
|
skiclimb
Nov 11, 2009, 6:21 PM
Post #16 of 22
(14194 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 11, 2004
Posts: 1938
|
Almost anywhere a piton or even a bolt as a lower off fixed peice would be considered OK and by many very appreciated... A rock solid larger nut could be fine too.
whatever you leave one thing should be certain.. it must be a very secure piece..if necessary pieces.
A 30 foot traverse could involve a pretty nasty fall if the lower out peice popped early in the lower out.
A 30' hook traverse is not very common..must be a few out there. I can think of one offhand. But all this aplies to even the fairly common 5 to 15 foot hook traverses that new waller might run into.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Nov 11, 2009, 6:28 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
xtrmecat
Nov 11, 2009, 7:01 PM
Post #17 of 22
(14166 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2004
Posts: 548
|
Here is Eric's video on the topic. Modify as needed, but should cover 99% of the stuff you will encounter.
http://vimeo.com/4388859
Someone may need to make it clicky.
Bob
Edit to add, it you are not releading the pitch, gear will need to be left. Should be discussed with leader prior to the lead. He can leave you set up for either way. Your actions will be the result of his.
(This post was edited by xtrmecat on Nov 11, 2009, 7:09 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
csproul
Nov 11, 2009, 7:11 PM
Post #18 of 22
(14159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 4, 2004
Posts: 1769
|
xtrmecat wrote: Here is Eric's video on the topic. Modify as needed, but should cover 99% of the stuff you will encounter. http://vimeo.com/4388859 Someone may need to make it clicky. Bob Edit to add, it you are not releading the pitch, gear will need to be left. Should be discussed with leader prior to the lead. He can leave you set up for either way. Your actions will be the result of his.
|
|
|
|
|
budman
Nov 11, 2009, 7:16 PM
Post #19 of 22
(14155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 170
|
Not uncommon for the second to carry hooks for the traverse, especially when many other pieces of gear are body weight only. It's as good for the second as the leader.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Nov 11, 2009, 7:45 PM
Post #20 of 22
(14140 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
A recent Supertopo Thread by Young Master Chris Mac - ... you may find some useful info by clicking his links as well
http://www.supertopo.com/....php?topic_id=970097
not you boadman the OP
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Nov 11, 2009, 7:46 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
rock_fencer
Nov 11, 2009, 7:53 PM
Post #21 of 22
(14130 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 7, 2005
Posts: 752
|
thanks dingus. most of our dialing in period involved the supertopo info. It was more the traversing nature of the roof that caught us off gaurd.
good info guys though.
cheers
T
|
|
|
|
|
moof
Nov 12, 2009, 10:17 PM
Post #22 of 22
(14081 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 17, 2003
Posts: 400
|
Nanook's video is excellent. Clip-cleaning (re-aiding) is also an excellent solution where there are many traversing pieces in a row.
The key for cleaning these things is something like a gri-gri, as both a backup while screwing around, as well as a way to lower out off a piece. Another rule is to NEVER lower out until you have some sort of tether to the piece.
All that said, if the leader back cleans the wrong piece (basically any piece on a traverse) they should know they are screwing the second. In a couple cases I've had to back clean, such as leap frogging #5 cams on Planck's Constant Roof, and in those cases I make sure to save those pieces so i could zip them back to the cleaner for them to re-aid that section (not backcleaning would have required ~6-7 #5's, no thank you).
(This post was edited by moof on Nov 13, 2009, 4:32 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
