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I_do
Nov 12, 2009, 11:49 AM
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Ok, from what I know and have read, going to a non-climbing gym the kind with weights is not very usefull as a training tool for climbing. Now I'm currently in discussion with some peeps who say it probably is and trying couldn't hurt.
Some questions:
Am I wrong?
If right how do I convince others I am?
Does anyone have some kind of reference?
I know this is not a new subject on this site believe me but I am looking for arguments that might persuade people who think lifting weights might be beneficial.
CHeers
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healyje
Nov 12, 2009, 11:59 AM
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I would normally be a naysayer, but Mark Hudon at 54 just led all the pitches of a NIAD run in under 16 hours 35 years after his first El Cap climb. Here's an ST thread on his climb where he talks about weight training and gives a reference in there somewhere to to the routine he followed.
Nose In A Day
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I_do
Nov 12, 2009, 12:04 PM
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healyje wrote: I would normally be a naysayer, but Mark Hudon at 54 just led all the pitches of a NIAD run in under 16 hours 35 years after his first El Cap climb. Here's an ST thread on his climb where he talks about weight training and gives a reference in there somewhere to to the routine he followed. Nose In A Day
Impossible to say to what degree the weights helped or not but definately an inspiring story, thanx for the read.
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airscape
Nov 12, 2009, 12:17 PM
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It seems to me as more of an injury prevention benifit than an actual climbing strength benefit.
Most excersizes I have seen for training antagonist muscles involve dumbells and a hammer. And it would be way easy to do them at home.
I don't think though that doing serious weight training is beneficial. What climbing move will you do better by bench pressing 200Kg. Also the extra muscle weight you will have to carry up with you on muscles that didn't benefit from the training.
I do think however that aerobic training is always benificial, no matter what sport you do.
Eric Horst: Conditioning for climbing <--explains some stuff.
(This post was edited by airscape on Nov 12, 2009, 12:43 PM)
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healyje
Nov 12, 2009, 12:20 PM
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I was out with him shortly before he headed down to the Valley and off-hand, given how strong he was for only climbing one day per week, I'd say they must have helped a great deal.
(This post was edited by healyje on Nov 12, 2009, 12:21 PM)
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king_rat
Nov 12, 2009, 12:38 PM
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I don’t have anything to support my theory on this but I would argue that for the average climber working out at the gym, builds muscles that you do not need in the wrong places and the wrong quantities. Also lifting weights does nothing to improve your technique and other climbing skills. I would conclude that for your average climber, climbing in its self is the best way to build strength.
On the other hand, I could see top climbers carefully using targeted weight lifting to improve on specific deficiencies.
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Myxomatosis
Nov 12, 2009, 1:19 PM
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airscape wrote: It seems to me as more of an injury prevention benifit than an actual climbing strength benefit.
This is the only reason I lift weights with some specific area's, triceps and some shoulder/back work outs.
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airscape
Nov 12, 2009, 1:29 PM
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Myxomatosis wrote: airscape wrote: It seems to me as more of an injury prevention benifit than an actual climbing strength benefit. This is the only reason I lift weights with some specific area's, triceps and some shoulder/back work outs.
Everything I have read points towards shoulders needing the most excersize to combat injury.
But no excesize with <25% of body weight weights.
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camhead
Nov 12, 2009, 1:36 PM
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Weight training is not stupid by itself. However, it is not the most efficient or specific way to train for climbing power, strength, or endurance. Since a HUGE part of intensive training routines is adequate rest-recovery periods, I think that ultimately weight training would just be a waste of time in which you could have been doing something more productive. The only exception would be if you don't have access to climbing-specific training facilities.
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Myxomatosis
Nov 12, 2009, 1:41 PM
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airscape wrote: Myxomatosis wrote: airscape wrote: It seems to me as more of an injury prevention benifit than an actual climbing strength benefit. This is the only reason I lift weights with some specific area's, triceps and some shoulder/back work outs. Everything I have read points towards shoulders needing the most excersize to combat injury. But no excesize with <25% of body weight weights.
I only use two 3kg weights 
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skrabut
Nov 12, 2009, 1:44 PM
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The gym is definitely a good overall workout, just make sure you train the right way; lightweight with lots of repetitions. If you do it the other way, like heavy weight with few repetitions you'll gain mass and that will hurt your climbing.
Also it's important to calibrate your training so you don't get stronger or do more crazy stuff than your tendons can handle.
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sidepull
Nov 12, 2009, 1:58 PM
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Personally, I'm an advocate of supplemental weight training. That means your goal is not to add 10 lbs of muscle to your chest, look good with spray on tan, or set a new personal best on the preacher curl. These things might all happen, but the goal, in my mind, of supplemental weight training is exercise and develop all the supporting muscles and main muscles that don't get a full workout in a climbing-only routine. Going this route means you really have to think about your athletic goals (climbing and otherwise) and really dial in your workouts so that they are synergistic and not antagonistic.
For example, Tommy Caldwell has talked extensively about weight lifting as a part of his method for his standard setting climbs on El Cap. It's just a part and he's very thoughtful about how he's put his routine together. More recently, he's started doing Crossfit (http://www.videoclimb.com/...e-of-tommy-caldwell/) which is popular with a lot of alpinists. These protocols would need to be adapted or changed wholesale if your goal is to climb V15 or short pitches of 5.14.
In sum, beware of simple (read: simplistic) rules like: "just climb," "weights are bad," or, on the flip side, "weight lifting couldn't hurt." The truth is, weight lifting can be beneficial, but, perhaps more often (because of a mixture of over-exuberance and ignorance) it isn't.
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smeinhold
Nov 12, 2009, 2:02 PM
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you guys are dumb, weights WILL help climbers. All you will do is become leaner and stronger. Unless you strictly workout your lower body, you will be fine.
I dont know why you think if you start lifting weights you'll all of a sudden get huge... not true. Gaining weight still is mostly based on how much you eat, and im guessing 90% of the people on this site could stand to hit the gym.
It will make you stronger, it will help with preventing injuries, and it will make you a better climber. remember working out is just like climbing, there are different styles and it takes time to understand it. I recommend you work with a trainer for a bit or do your research before you iron out your plan. lightweight with lots of reps is a waste of time. tendons are stronger than you can train, pullys break. Lets see one form of tendonitis is where your tendon starts to fracture a bone so you do the math on whats stronger.
I have lifted weights on and off for about 7 years and it has not harmed my climbing. I feel that it noticeably helps.
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I_do
Nov 12, 2009, 2:16 PM
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smeinhold wrote: you guys are dumb, weights WILL help climbers. All you will do is become leaner and stronger. Unless you strictly workout your lower body, you will be fine. I dont know why you think if you start lifting weights you'll all of a sudden get huge... not true. Gaining weight still is mostly based on how much you eat, and im guessing 90% of the people on this site could stand to hit the gym. It will make you stronger, it will help with preventing injuries, and it will make you a better climber. remember working out is just like climbing, there are different styles and it takes time to understand it. I recommend you work with a trainer for a bit or do your research before you iron out your plan. lightweight with lots of reps is a waste of time. tendons are stronger than you can train, pullys break. Lets see one form of tendonitis is where your tendon starts to fracture a bone so you do the math on whats stronger. I have lifted weights on and off for about 7 years and it has not harmed my climbing. I feel that it noticeably helps.
Now do climbing specific excercices for seven years and then tell me how you go ok?
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icanribbit
Nov 12, 2009, 2:18 PM
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smeinhold wrote: you guys are dumb, weights WILL help climbers. All you will do is become leaner and stronger. Unless you strictly workout your lower body, you will be fine. I dont know why you think if you start lifting weights you'll all of a sudden get huge... not true. Gaining weight still is mostly based on how much you eat, and im guessing 90% of the people on this site could stand to hit the gym. It will make you stronger, it will help with preventing injuries, and it will make you a better climber. remember working out is just like climbing, there are different styles and it takes time to understand it. I recommend you work with a trainer for a bit or do your research before you iron out your plan. lightweight with lots of reps is a waste of time. tendons are stronger than you can train, pullys break. Lets see one form of tendonitis is where your tendon starts to fracture a bone so you do the math on whats stronger. I have lifted weights on and off for about 7 years and it has not harmed my climbing. I feel that it noticeably helps.
I couldn't agree more. Climbers reasons for lifting weights:
Injury prevention
getting past any "sticking point"
Gaining endurance in hands, forearms, core, legs, claves, feet.....all helpful
Gaining strength for a specific need, say you can't hit a dyno in the gym cuz your jump is 2 inches too short. Most people can add 2 inches to thier vert jump fairly easily with weight training and plyometrics.
Weight training can also be a nice change of pace, for you, and your body. Sometimes to make gains in one area, you need to focus on something else. If nothing else breaking up the monotony of endless hang board pull ups and leg extensions could do wonders.
Don't ever limit what you do based on what someone else says. Figure it out for yourself by TRYING it. Everyone is different.
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abe_ascends
Nov 12, 2009, 2:26 PM
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sidepull wrote: Personally, I'm an advocate of supplemental weight training. That means your goal is not to add 10 lbs of muscle to your chest, look good with spray on tan, or set a new personal best on the preacher curl. These things might all happen, but the goal, in my mind, of supplemental weight training is exercise and develop all the supporting muscles and main muscles that don't get a full workout in a climbing-only routine. Going this route means you really have to think about your athletic goals (climbing and otherwise) and really dial in your workouts so that they are synergistic and not antagonistic.
What sidepull said. I find that lifting keeps my muscles balanced better- my shoulders grind like hell if I only climb, or climb too much- and it does help me increase strength for climbing, especially when I can't get on the rock for a few days. As others have mentioned, lifting may not be the most efficient way to increase strength and power, but for the average joe, it can be helpful if done right.
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smeinhold
Nov 12, 2009, 2:36 PM
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every climber hits plateaus and you have to train specifically to get past them. in 1hr lifting weights i can get a workout as opposed to 4-6 hours climbing in the gym. i do climbing specific weight lifting and like i said it works. if i could magically climb everyday and make money i would but that doesnt work in my world. find me elite athletes in other sports that do not cross train with weights. weightlifting has helped me achieve my climbing goals. also after climbing for about 13 years my fingers get achey if i train in the climbing gym every day.
you lift weights for 7 months and tell me if it helps your climbing.
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sidepull
Nov 12, 2009, 2:50 PM
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skrabut wrote: The gym is definitely a good overall workout, just make sure you train the right way; lightweight with lots of repetitions. If you do it the other way, like heavy weight with few repetitions you'll gain mass and that will hurt your climbing.
Proves my point about ignorance and simplistic-ness. This is a great example of how climbers bring stupid notions to "pumping iron."
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I_do
Nov 12, 2009, 2:55 PM
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smeinhold wrote: every climber hits plateaus and you have to train specifically to get past them. in 1hr lifting weights i can get a workout as opposed to 4-6 hours climbing in the gym. i do climbing specific weight lifting and like i said it works. if i could magically climb everyday and make money i would but that doesnt work in my world. find me elite athletes in other sports that do not cross train with weights. weightlifting has helped me achieve my climbing goals. also after climbing for about 13 years my fingers get achey if i train in the climbing gym every day. you lift weights for 7 months and tell me if it helps your climbing.
Well there was this student in some kind of high level PE kinda course who was looking for a climbing gineua pig. I'm kinda tempted to give it a go, it would be for ten weeks so I might be able to do just that.
CHeers
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icanribbit
Nov 12, 2009, 3:01 PM
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I_do wrote: smeinhold wrote: every climber hits plateaus and you have to train specifically to get past them. in 1hr lifting weights i can get a workout as opposed to 4-6 hours climbing in the gym. i do climbing specific weight lifting and like i said it works. if i could magically climb everyday and make money i would but that doesnt work in my world. find me elite athletes in other sports that do not cross train with weights. weightlifting has helped me achieve my climbing goals. also after climbing for about 13 years my fingers get achey if i train in the climbing gym every day. you lift weights for 7 months and tell me if it helps your climbing. Well there was this student in some kind of high level PE kinda course who was looking for a climbing gineua pig. I'm kinda tempted to give it a go, it would be for ten weeks so I might be able to do just that. CHeers
10 weeks would be just enough time for your nervous system to adapt to the weight lifting moves you'd be trying, and not really gain too much more than that. I say go for it though, you'll enjoy it, and the benefits! Keep it up after the 10 weeks, and you'll really notice a lot of change
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scotty1974
Nov 12, 2009, 3:01 PM
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I think lifting weights is great for climbing, just as others say don't lift to get big. I've spent alot of time trying to reduce the bulk I spent years building up. You don't see alot beefy climbers and boarders (not that there aren't).
It's also key as you start to lose muscle in your late 20's and 30's and we all know if you don't use it you lose it! Try to keep it to climbing specific workouts with lots of body weight exercises mixed in.
Just be careful not to overtrain...I'm a classic "overdoer" and deal with all kinds of pulls and tendonitis because of it.
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I_do
Nov 12, 2009, 3:09 PM
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scotty1974 wrote: I think lifting weights is great for climbing, just as others say don't lift to get big. I've spent alot of time trying to reduce the bulk I spent years building up. You don't see alot beefy climbers and boarders (not that there aren't). It's also key as you start to lose muscle in your late 20's and 30's and we all know if you don't use it you lose it! Try to keep it to climbing specific workouts with lots of body weight exercises mixed in. Just be careful not to overtrain...I'm a classic "overdoer" and deal with all kinds of pulls and tendonitis because of it.
The deal would be two sessions a week in the gym, doesn't seem overly ambitious and I do have a lot of time on my hands at the moment.
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scotty1974
Nov 12, 2009, 3:20 PM
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That'll be perfect, in fact you might want to bump it up to 3 depending on how much you climb. Spread out your muscle groups on those days, maybe like M,W,F.
I like interval training as well. Check out the gymjones.com & mtnathlete.com websites to get some climber specific weight training ideas.
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skrabut
Nov 12, 2009, 3:43 PM
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@ Smeinhold: Anyway as I said weights do help climbing but if your main purpose of using weights is to grow big muscles you're not training effectively for climbing.
The fact is that your tendons don't adjust as quickly as your muscles, so if you make a power move that your tendons can not handle you injure them. But go ahead:)
Climbing is a full upper body workout, so of course if you go to the gym and train effectively it will help a lot, so will swimming. I have been combining climbing with weights for a couple of years now, so I can tell from my experience it does.
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