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p8ntballsk8r
Nov 23, 2009, 5:04 AM
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There has been research done on doing sports in general in a very relaxed state. For example, the reason tennis players grunt is because they are exhaleing before they hit the ball to relax their body through contacting the ball.
Do you think it would be more beneficial to climb in a very relaxed state, or in a state full of adrenaline? I can see both cases extremely helpful, but can't really find a way to combine them. When full of adrenaline, one can do things you've never been able to do before... this is how I currently climb, as the adrenaline is flowing knowing I'm going to face a big whipper if I fall, and 'holding on for dear life.'
But are there some cases where it would be more beneficial to be as relaxed as possible, almost in a meditative state before climbing
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asiaclimber
Nov 23, 2009, 5:24 AM
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relaxed>pumped and adrenaline filled. Always.
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clews
Nov 23, 2009, 5:28 AM
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asiaclimber wrote: relaxed>pumped and adrenaline filled. Always.
+1
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rhythm164
Nov 23, 2009, 5:35 AM
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Generally I find the more relaxed I am, the smoother I move, the more aware I feel, and the longer it takes to get pumped. There's also something to be said for being able to turn it on when you need to move through a crux.
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sungam
Nov 23, 2009, 6:04 AM
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asiaclimber wrote: relaxed>pumped and adrenaline filled. Always.
Sometimes you need that little extra, though. Didn't Dave McLeod take part in a study that showed that someone yelling at him to pull harder increased the how hard he could squeeze something?
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ceebo
Nov 23, 2009, 10:55 AM
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Suppose a rush of adrenaline on a crux you would normaly fail at would give you the push you need. No idea how your suppose to controll the releasae of it.. as far as i was aware you or som1 near you needs to be in serius danger befor you get any of the good stuff. If you can get it on demand then lucky you ;[
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jt512
Nov 23, 2009, 5:38 PM
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p8ntballsk8r wrote: There has been research done on doing sports in general in a very relaxed state. For example, the reason tennis players grunt is because they are exhaleing before they hit the ball to relax their body through contacting the ball. Do you think it would be more beneficial to climb in a very relaxed state, or in a state full of adrenaline? I can see both cases extremely helpful, but can't really find a way to combine them. When full of adrenaline, one can do things you've never been able to do before... this is how I currently climb, as the adrenaline is flowing knowing I'm going to face a big whipper if I fall, and 'holding on for dear life.' But are there some cases where it would be more beneficial to be as relaxed as possible, almost in a meditative state before climbing
I think it was Udo and Neumann who recommended attempting to match the degree of "arousal" to the climb. On a powerful boulder problem, for instance, you'd want a high state of arousal, whereas on a route requiring more fine-grained movement, like technical slab, you'd want less arousal. That probably makes sense. I suspect that the adrenaline gives you power at the expense of fine coordination.
Jay
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sp00ki
Nov 23, 2009, 10:18 PM
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I'm sure research > opinion, but i'd imagine it has more to do with the type of route you're doing than anything else.
a long, balancy route that requires a calm head would probably crumble with too much adrenaline. on the other hand, the crux of a hard dynamic route will probably go better with adrenaline to hone the explosive precision and push past the pain.
ed: why do i feel like i just wasted a postcount point?
(This post was edited by sp00ki on Nov 23, 2009, 10:19 PM)
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andrewG
Nov 23, 2009, 11:09 PM
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jt512 wrote: p8ntballsk8r wrote: There has been research done on doing sports in general in a very relaxed state. For example, the reason tennis players grunt is because they are exhaleing before they hit the ball to relax their body through contacting the ball. Do you think it would be more beneficial to climb in a very relaxed state, or in a state full of adrenaline? I can see both cases extremely helpful, but can't really find a way to combine them. When full of adrenaline, one can do things you've never been able to do before... this is how I currently climb, as the adrenaline is flowing knowing I'm going to face a big whipper if I fall, and 'holding on for dear life.' But are there some cases where it would be more beneficial to be as relaxed as possible, almost in a meditative state before climbing I think it was Udo and Neumann who recommended attempting to match the degree of "arousal" to the climb. On a powerful boulder problem, for instance, you'd want a high state of arousal, whereas on a route requiring more fine-grained movement, like technical slab, you'd want less arousal. That probably makes sense. I suspect that the adrenaline gives you power at the expense of fine coordination. Jay
Agreed. I seem to recall seeing that in a Horst book as well. I tend to take a more relaxed approach, but then I don't climb hard and/or steep stuff.
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dugl33
Nov 23, 2009, 11:31 PM
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Some interesting books have looked into this, including "Flow; The psychology of optimal performance", and "The inner game of tennis". A major point of the first book was that people achieve highest states of performance when they essentially become so engrained in the moment, so completely focused, that they are no longer fully consciously acting.
Its hard to imagine how a high adrenaline state of mind is the best thing. I'm sure this was the state of mind of many people as they became so gripped they shook themselves right off the holds. Complete focus and commitment are skills worth developing, adrenaline usually needs to be kept in check IMO, unless your lifting a volkswagen off your kid.
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cintune
Nov 24, 2009, 12:01 AM
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But then again, adrenaline release is an involuntary function, and it serves a specific biological purpose:
In reply to: 'These changes in the body, are, each one of them, directly serviceable in making the organism more efficient in the struggle which fear or rage or pain may involve; for fear and rage are organic preparations for action, and pain is the most powerful known stimulus to supreme exertion. The organism which with the aid of increased adrenal secretion can best muster its energies, can best call forth sugar to supply the labouring muscles, can best lessen fatigue, and can best send blood to the parts essential in the run or the fight for life, is most likely to survive. Such, according to the view here propounded, is the function of the adrenal medulla at times of great emergency.' — Walter Bradford Cannon Quoted in S. Benison, A. C. Barger and E. L. Wolfe, Walter B Cannon: The Life and Times of a Young Scientist (1987), 311.
So, y'know, you can try to stay relaxed, but when it comes right down to it, your body probably knows best.
(This post was edited by cintune on Nov 24, 2009, 12:03 AM)
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Bag11s
Nov 24, 2009, 1:34 AM
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Many hard routes require alternating between the states. A route may have a long section of high-tech stemming that requires full-on tension and precise palm and foot smearing supported by intense core strength and patient endurance. Then you may come to a radical crux power bulge that requires a total commitment of all dynamic physical craziness that you can muster.
A great route I sent this past weekend has an episodic plotline, kind of a war comprised of several battles, with three powerful boulder problem cruxes separated by two poor stances where making a full recovery is difficult. In all three cases- from the ground to the first crux, and from the each of the stances to the cruxes above them- the climbing gets progressively harder after you leave the stance. So as not to blow it, I spent a lot of time at the stances shaking out, breathing, getting control of the heart rate, and finally getting psyched before launching out on the next bit. On this route, climbing up to each crux requires steady focused attention in a relaxed state. To conserve strength while climbing these bridging sections, you have to execute every move as efficiently and relaxed as possible. Success is also dependant on setting up on each boulder problem’s starting holds in the right way and then executing each problem’s various moves precisely. In addition, however, the boulder problems require that you unleash every physical resource you have- if you do not, it is unlikely that you would succeed on this climb.
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dugl33
Nov 24, 2009, 2:09 AM
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I think there is confusion running through this thread regarding the difference between intensity, arousal, whatever you want to call it and the OPs "OMG I'm gonna f'ing die" fight or flight adrenaline rush clinging for dear life proposition.
Appropriate intensity - yes! Efficient climbing -yes! Keeping a lid on - yes!
If the wheels are coming off the bus you are going to fall if the climbing is at all subtle. You may get away with it for a while on good holds, unless you just burn out and fall anyway.
Your body doesn't always know what's best. Stay relaxed to the best of your ability. Of course, by relaxed I don't mean lazy. And I don't mean clueless to danger.
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king_rat
Nov 24, 2009, 12:34 PM
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I find that when I am calm my technique is better, I climb more efficiently and only use the minimum of energy required to keep me in place. I find when I am panicking my technique goes out the window and I start relying on brute force over technique. I also find that I tend to over compensate( I grip the holds harder then I need to) and therefore waist energy. This is fine if the route is short, and favours brute force over technique, but on longer sustained routes I will tend to burn out quicker.
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ceebo
Nov 24, 2009, 1:20 PM
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This may not count as on topic but here goes.. the other day i had climbed alot and was very tired. We then decided to have a go on a campus board, i felt i was far too tired to do it and hesitently started. I was quite suprised how high i manedged to get considering how knackerd i felt (i had convinced myself i couldnt even get off the floor).
Could this be a mentel hole in not knowing my limits or is it the fact that i do not brute my way through things and try to climb relaxed as possible?.. almost to a point where somthing i know will take brute froce just puts me off from lazyness?
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dingus
Nov 24, 2009, 1:37 PM
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p8ntballsk8r wrote: There has been research done on doing sports in general in a very relaxed state. For example, the reason tennis players grunt is because they are exhaleing before they hit the ball to relax their body through contacting the ball.
I don't buy that tennis bullshit for a second.
It ruined the sport. Totally ruined it. And grunting teenagers pretending to be rock stars is fucking annoying too. Don't you encourage them!
DMT
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jt512
Nov 24, 2009, 4:36 PM
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ceebo wrote: This may not count as on topic but here goes .. the other day i had climbed alot and was very tired. We then decided to have a go on a campus board, i felt i was far too tired to do it and hesitently started. I was quite suprised how high i manedged to get considering how knackerd i felt ( i had convinced myself i couldnt even get off the floor). Could this be a mentel hole in not knowing my limits or is it the fact that i do not brute my way through things and try to climb relaxed as possible? .. almost to a point where somthing i know will take brute froce just puts me off from lazyness?
Judging by the number of uncorrected spelling errors in your post, I'd have to say it was laziness.
Jay
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aerili
Nov 24, 2009, 8:13 PM
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p8ntballsk8r wrote: There has been research done on doing sports in general in a very relaxed state. For example, the reason tennis players grunt is because they are exhaleing before they hit the ball to relax their body through contacting the ball.
Super generic statement. I've never heard of this research; can you cite?
Sport psychology is complex; such relationships are still unclear and debated in the research fields.
jt's earlier response was trending toward the mark as what you should think about.
In reply to: Do you think it would be more beneficial to climb in a very relaxed state, or in a state full of adrenaline? I can see both cases extremely helpful, but can't really find a way to combine them.
It isn't an either/or subject. "Appropriate" arousal level is dependent on the sport in question, the individual in question, and so many other things that researchers are still trying to sort out.
Are you familiar with the inverted-U hypothesis?
Also, here is some more info:
"...anxiety and arousal are multi-dimensional constructs which do not have simple linear relationships with athletic performance.
... Increases in physiological arousal and cognitive state anxiety do not inevitably lead to a deterioration in athletic performance. ...For example, increased arousal may be perceived as energizing rather than overwhelming and hence faciliative of performance.
...The interaction between arousal and cognitive anxiety seems to be more important in determining performance than is the absolute value of either variable on its own."
So, it seems like you are thinking the two states are hard to combine when the reality is that they are ALWAYS combined in all of us. Some just do it better than others. 'How' is a major topic of research.
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hafilax
Nov 24, 2009, 8:24 PM
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dingus wrote: p8ntballsk8r wrote: There has been research done on doing sports in general in a very relaxed state. For example, the reason tennis players grunt is because they are exhaleing before they hit the ball to relax their body through contacting the ball. I don't buy that tennis bullshit for a second. It ruined the sport. Totally ruined it. And grunting teenagers pretending to be rock stars is fucking annoying too. Don't you encourage them! DMT
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ceebo
Nov 25, 2009, 1:19 AM
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jt512 wrote: ceebo wrote: This may not count as on topic but here goes .. the other day i had climbed alot and was very tired. We then decided to have a go on a campus board, i felt i was far too tired to do it and hesitently started. I was quite suprised how high i manedged to get considering how knackerd i felt ( i had convinced myself i couldnt even get off the floor). Could this be a mentel hole in not knowing my limits or is it the fact that i do not brute my way through things and try to climb relaxed as possible? .. almost to a point where somthing i know will take brute froce just puts me off from lazyness? Judging by the number of uncorrected spelling errors in your post, I'd have to say it was laziness. Jay
Their are more possibilitys than that, since your the smart one im sure you can explore them.
Im confident multiple question about you could all be answerd with the same word.. your are a CUNT.
(This post was edited by ceebo on Nov 25, 2009, 1:20 AM)
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jt512
Nov 25, 2009, 1:22 AM
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ceebo wrote: jt512 wrote: ceebo wrote: This may not count as on topic but here goes .. the other day i had climbed alot and was very tired. We then decided to have a go on a campus board, i felt i was far too tired to do it and hesitently started. I was quite suprised how high i manedged to get considering how knackerd i felt ( i had convinced myself i couldnt even get off the floor). Could this be a mentel hole in not knowing my limits or is it the fact that i do not brute my way through things and try to climb relaxed as possible? .. almost to a point where somthing i know will take brute froce just puts me off from lazyness? Judging by the number of uncorrected spelling errors in your post, I'd have to say it was laziness. Jay Their are more possibilitys than that, since your the smart one im sure you can explore them. Im confident multiple question about you could all be answerd with the same word.. your are a CUNT.
Quoted for the record.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Nov 25, 2009, 1:23 AM)
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charlie.elverson
Nov 25, 2009, 3:22 AM
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ceebo wrote: jt512 wrote: ceebo wrote: This may not count as on topic but here goes.. the other day i had climbed alot and was very tired. We then decided to have a go on a campus board, i felt i was far too tired to do it and hesitently started. I was quite suprised how high i manedged to get considering how knackerd i felt (i had convinced myself i couldnt even get off the floor). Could this be a mentel hole in not knowing my limits or is it the fact that i do not brute my way through things and try to climb relaxed as possible?.. almost to a point where somthing i know will take brute froce just puts me off from lazyness? Judging by the number of uncorrected spelling errors in your post, I'd have to say it was laziness. Jay are more possibilitys than that, since your the smart one im sure you can explore them. Im confident multiple question about you could all be answerd with the same word.. your are a CUNT
I bet you're glad you spelled cunt correctly.
(This post was edited by charlie.elverson on Nov 25, 2009, 3:48 AM)
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sungam
Nov 25, 2009, 9:50 AM
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charlie.elverson wrote: ceebo wrote: jt512 wrote: ceebo wrote: This may not count as on topic but here goes.. the other day i had climbed alot and was very tired. We then decided to have a go on a campus board, i felt i was far too tired to do it and hesitently started. I was quite suprised how high i manedged to get considering how knackerd i felt (i had convinced myself i couldnt even get off the floor). Could this be a mentel hole in not knowing my limits or is it the fact that i do not brute my way through things and try to climb relaxed as possible?.. almost to a point where somthing i know will take brute froce just puts me off from lazyness? Judging by the number of uncorrected spelling errors in your post, I'd have to say it was laziness. Jay are more possibilitys than that, since your the smart one im sure you can explore them. Im confident multiple question about you could all be answerd with the same word.. your are a CUNT I bet you're glad you spelled cunt correctly.
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Bag11s
Nov 25, 2009, 3:00 PM
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Most charitably, he didn’t charge you with falling through the mentel hole.
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p8ntballsk8r
Nov 26, 2009, 11:27 PM
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aerili wrote: p8ntballsk8r wrote: There has been research done on doing sports in general in a very relaxed state. For example, the reason tennis players grunt is because they are exhaleing before they hit the ball to relax their body through contacting the ball. Super generic statement. I've never heard of this research; can you cite?
Unfortunately I cannot. It was something a tennis coach of mine talked about. I later realized these findings to be correct when watching the better players in the conference playing each other. I talked with our Number 1 singles players mother, she said just by listening to her son she could tell how he was playing because of his breathing/relaxation
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