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dbogardus
Dec 2, 2009, 4:13 PM
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I know that when racking your gear each cam gets a biner and nuts are racked together on one biner.
I'm a bit confused as to why this is done. Are nuts carried up together so you can use extendable draws after they are placed? Is there any problem with clipping into a biner which is directly on a nut? And, if nuts aren't racked with a biner each because you plan on using draws as the circumstances require, why would each cam get its own biner?
Edit: corrected thread name
(This post was edited by dbogardus on Dec 2, 2009, 4:14 PM)
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granite_grrl
Dec 2, 2009, 4:21 PM
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Nuts generally have less play than a cam before it'll pull. To prevent your nuts pulling/falling out people will put runners on them.
It can get much more complicated than that (the slinging of nuts and cams is very situational), but that's the bare bone answer.
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subantz
Dec 2, 2009, 4:25 PM
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Clipping into the nuts may hurt alot. I would clip a nipple instead. No that would hurt to. Maybe clip BOLTS yea for sport climbing.
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lena_chita
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Dec 2, 2009, 4:34 PM
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What granite_grrl said...
If you are asking about why they are racked on harness/gear sling that way, instead of why they are slinged on the climb, I think it is largely convenience.
Nuts are easy to slide off a 'biner if you have a bunch of them together. And it is nice to have the whole cluster in front of you to decide which one you need, instead of trying to grope for a proper 'biner with a single nut on it. Cams being bigger, and with their slings instead of metal wire, would be a bit harder to slide one off a carabiner one-handed, if you had a bunch of cams on the same 'biner... it would be easier to drop a cam that way, IMO. Also, if you rack each nut on a separate biner, you are going to run out of room on your harness/gear sling really fast...
If there was a hypothetical situation, say, a line that you have worked extensively, that you know every single piece of gear on every single placement, so you are only bringing what you need with you when you are trying to send it-- there is no reason at all why you couldn't have a nut in the exact ize you need, with a biner and a sling already in place, and racked on your harness in the exact order front to back, or whatever, of your placements on the route.
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cleethree
Dec 2, 2009, 4:50 PM
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i'm still a noob and can be completely wrong, but climbing is generally pretty logical so i'll tell you what i think.
nuts are racked together because, you can fit a bunch of them on 1 biner, the rest of them are a good handle to set the placed piece, and nuts have a smaller range than cams, so you might want to have a multitude of sizes readily available in case you chose the wrong size initially. a nut that's not tightly set could pop out if clip directly to it, that's why extended draws are reguarly used.
i think people rack a cam per biner because they take up more space, it would be hard to clip more than 2 small or 3 large cams on 1 biner and have them hang nicely. also you have more range with them so you're less likely to chose the wrong piece. i actually rack 2-3 cams per biner because its less gear to carry up and i like having the next size up or down - like i said, i'm a noob.
(This post was edited by cleethree on Dec 2, 2009, 4:52 PM)
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ptlong
Dec 2, 2009, 6:31 PM
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cleethree wrote: i think people rack a cam per biner because they take up more space, it would be hard to clip more than 2 small or 3 large cams on 1 biner and have them hang nicely.
It's very possible to rack multiple cams per carabiner. I have done this in the past and still do it in certain situations. Usually it's 2-4 small cams. Aliens used to be sold without slings so they could be easily racked as nuts for aid climbing.
The main reason people rack one cam per carabiner is because it is much more efficient to place one that way.
I will sometimes do the same with a nut, sling it seperately, if I know in advance I'll need to place it from a difficult position.
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seatbeltpants
Dec 2, 2009, 7:01 PM
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ptlong wrote: cleethree wrote: i think people rack a cam per biner because they take up more space, it would be hard to clip more than 2 small or 3 large cams on 1 biner and have them hang nicely. It's very possible to rack multiple cams per carabiner. I have done this in the past and still do it in certain situations. Usually it's 2-4 small cams. Aliens used to be sold without slings so they could be easily racked as nuts for aid climbing. The main reason people rack one cam per carabiner is because it is much more efficient to place one that way. I will sometimes do the same with a nut, sling it seperately, if I know in advance I'll need to place it from a difficult position.
yip, i tend to rack a couple of my smaller cams on the same biner because i'm a bit shit at judging placements, and smaller cams have a smaller range in which they'll fit. mid or large cams i rack one per biner because i find i can get the right one first time more often.
steve
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cleethree
Dec 2, 2009, 7:16 PM
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ptlong wrote: cleethree wrote: i think people rack a cam per biner because they take up more space, it would be hard to clip more than 2 small or 3 large cams on 1 biner and have them hang nicely. It's very possible to rack multiple cams per carabiner. I have done this in the past and still do it in certain situations. Usually it's 2-4 small cams. Aliens used to be sold without slings so they could be easily racked as nuts for aid climbing. The main reason people rack one cam per carabiner is because it is much more efficient to place one that way. I will sometimes do the same with a nut, sling it seperately, if I know in advance I'll need to place it from a difficult position.
i never said it was impossible to rack more than 1 cam on a biner. i rack 2 to 3 myself, as stated above.
in regards to the 1 biner per cam rational, i agree it's more efficient only if you know exactly what piece you need and you plan to clip right to the piece. if you try more than one piece or you plan to go back to the harness for an extended draw i don't see the benefit.
(This post was edited by cleethree on Dec 2, 2009, 7:17 PM)
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west_by_god_virginia
Dec 2, 2009, 7:32 PM
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first of all, i would never clip in to my nuts. ow.
second, i dunno why noone else mentioned this. adding a biner to each nut could add huge amounts of weight to your rack. light is right bro
(This post was edited by west_by_god_virginia on Dec 2, 2009, 7:41 PM)
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qtm
Dec 2, 2009, 8:28 PM
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west_by_god_virginia wrote: first of all, i would never clip in to my nuts. ow. second, i dunno why noone else mentioned this. adding a biner to each nut could add huge amounts of weight to your rack. light is right bro
Not necessarily. If all your pro has a biner, then you don't need to have two biners on all your runners. You could carry your runners over the shoulder with a single biner apiece and use the racking biner to connect the runner to the pro.
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jeepnphreak
Dec 2, 2009, 9:10 PM
Post #12 of 26
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dbogardus wrote: I know that when racking your gear each cam gets a biner and nuts are racked together on one biner. I'm a bit confused as to why this is done. Are nuts carried up together so you can use extendable draws after they are placed? Is there any problem with clipping into a biner which is directly on a nut? And, if nuts aren't racked with a biner each because you plan on using draws as the circumstances require, why would each cam get its own biner? Edit: corrected thread name
I rack my cams on single biners, because they cam and there for are more forgiveing than passive gear to place.
my stoppers I rack on three biners.
biner 1 has the smalest sizes
biner 2 has the medium sizes
biner 3 has the larger stoppers.
because the stoppers have zero range of motion for placement, ie no moving parts, the placemant has to be exact.
so think of it like a ring of keys. if you grab one that just the wrong size at first. You do not need to fumble through the rack to find the next size stopper. Just flip through what is on the biner and place the best fitting piece. it faster that way for me any way.
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jakedatc
Dec 2, 2009, 9:27 PM
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jeepnphreak wrote: dbogardus wrote: I know that when racking your gear each cam gets a biner and nuts are racked together on one biner. I'm a bit confused as to why this is done. Are nuts carried up together so you can use extendable draws after they are placed? Is there any problem with clipping into a biner which is directly on a nut? And, if nuts aren't racked with a biner each because you plan on using draws as the circumstances require, why would each cam get its own biner? Edit: corrected thread name I rack my cams on single biners, because they cam and there for are more forgiveing than passive gear to place. my stoppers I rack on three biners. biner 1 has the smalest sizes biner 2 has the medium sizes biner 3 has the larger stoppers. because the stoppers have zero range of motion for placement, ie no moving parts, the placemant has to be exact. so think of it like a ring of keys. if you grab one that just the wrong size at first. You do not need to fumble through the rack to find the next size stopper. Just flip through what is on the biner and place the best fitting piece. it faster that way for me any way.
unless you miss on the small or large end and have to go to the next biner. I did split mine into 2 groups but have since changed to 1 biner and when i get doubles i will have them on a second biner. I keep red,pink, brown tri cams on one biner also.
cams go on one biner. i've tried the over the shoulder method but find they get tangled. plus i prefer to rack on a sling so i put draws on my harness. keeping everything separate makes swapping gear easier as well.
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ptlong
Dec 2, 2009, 9:30 PM
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cleethree wrote: in regards to the 1 biner per cam rational, i agree it's more efficient only if you know exactly what piece you need and you plan to clip right to the piece. if you try more than one piece or you plan to go back to the harness for an extended draw i don't see the benefit.
Keep climbing, you'll see it eventually.
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Hotpies
Dec 17, 2009, 4:34 AM
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"jeepnphreak wrote: my stoppers I rack on three biners. biner 1 has the smalest sizes biner 2 has the medium sizes biner 3 has the larger stoppers.
I like to mix my stoppers up because I have butter fingers and I'd really hate to drop a biner and lose all my nuts in one size range.
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jeepnphreak
Dec 17, 2009, 4:51 PM
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Hotpies wrote: "jeepnphreak wrote: my stoppers I rack on three biners. biner 1 has the smalest sizes biner 2 has the medium sizes biner 3 has the larger stoppers. I like to mix my stoppers up because I have butter fingers and I'd really hate to drop a biner and lose all my nuts in one size range.
sounds cumbersome, how long does it take to flip through a random mess of stoppers to find the right one?
I still like my method but if that works saftly for you than great!
I keep about four to five stopper per biner, and the order per biner is by size as well.
biner 1 (BD sizes 4-6)
biner2 (bd sizes7-10)
biner 3 )bd sizes 11- 13)
still the fastest method for me to get a piece placed.
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Hotpies
Dec 17, 2009, 7:50 PM
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Doesn't usually take too long. I usually find that there's rarely just one placement in front of me; even a little crack offers a lot of options. I also practice getting the sizes right on the first go by comparing my stoppers to different parts of my hand, so I know if the crack is just a pinch tighter than my thumb, say, stopper x will fit.
But yes, at times, it can be a cluster fuck.
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dugl33
Dec 17, 2009, 8:50 PM
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cleethree wrote: i'm still a noob and can be completely wrong, but climbing is generally pretty logical so i'll tell you what i think. nuts are racked together because, you can fit a bunch of them on 1 biner, the rest of them are a good handle to set the placed piece, and nuts have a smaller range than cams, so you might want to have a multitude of sizes readily available in case you chose the wrong size initially. a nut that's not tightly set could pop out if clip directly to it, that's why extended draws are reguarly used. i think people rack a cam per biner because they take up more space, it would be hard to clip more than 2 small or 3 large cams on 1 biner and have them hang nicely. also you have more range with them so you're less likely to chose the wrong piece. i actually rack 2-3 cams per biner because its less gear to carry up and i like having the next size up or down - like i said, i'm a noob.
+1 noob. well done!
The only thing I would add is that if you are careful about it and the line is pretty straight, with one biner per cam, you can clip straight in. The trick is to keep your hips in, and maybe give the rope a light jiggle, as you pass the piece, so as to not rotate the cam stem upward. Most people I climb with using a one biner per cam set up (light biners like superflys are nice), simply clip the draw or sling straight to the cam runner, without bothering to remove the racking biner. Just seems quicker.
Also, I like using an oval or two to rack the nuts. Ovals are nice for this because of the round shape, and the gate tooth will occasionally keep you from dropping a nut as the cable catches on the tooth. I generally distribute nuts over two ovals by size, but I have doubles. With small specialty nuts like RPs or offsets I'll use a third racking biner.
Flip it over, eyeball the right size, place it, tug the other nuts to set it, runner it, and get going.
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jakedatc
Dec 17, 2009, 10:29 PM
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In reply to: Most people I climb with using a one biner per cam set up (light biners like superflys are nice), simply clip the draw or sling straight to the cam runner, without bothering to remove the racking biner. Just seems quicker.
most folks i climb with do this also.. makes re racking and swapping leads much faster. It also allows you to partially rack while cleaning if you have a good stance. cam goes on it's biner.. trad draw gets re-tripled and put away separate
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desertwanderer81
Dec 18, 2009, 8:59 PM
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dbogardus wrote: I know that when racking your gear each cam gets a biner and nuts are racked together on one biner. I'm a bit confused as to why this is done. Are nuts carried up together so you can use extendable draws after they are placed? Is there any problem with clipping into a biner which is directly on a nut? And, if nuts aren't racked with a biner each because you plan on using draws as the circumstances require, why would each cam get its own biner? Edit: corrected thread name
There are lots of reasons, but for me at least, it comes down to this:
Usually, and there are exceptions, you will place each indivisual cam more frequently than you will a nut. IE you do a route and start with 12 cams and 20 nuts and place 11 of your cams and only 10 nuts, you're going to end up with a lot of extra bulk on your rack with all of those extra cams. Plus it costs a lot more too ;)
Furthermore, you can often place a cam without the need of a runner to extend it. It is unusual for me to personally place a nut without using a runner. The reason for this is because when you climb, the rope will often pull outwards on your placements. While cams can and will walk themselves out (especially if placed poorly), a rope pulling directly on a nut can frequently pull it right out. This is why people will often place a cam as their first piece, because that first piece will frequently get a lot more rope pull than the rest of your pieces.
Obviously there are exceptions to this as there are for everything. Some nut placements are so bomber that no amount of rope pull will take them out. Other times you're going to want to sling every cam you place.
Your best bet is to climb with multiple people and clean the pro after they lead each pitch. Don't be afraid to ask them why they placed certain pieces in certain ways. Watch how they rack up. Ask them why they rack up the way they do. Everyone has a slightly different style and each climb is different, so you'll want to really understand what's going on so you can adapt as you go along.
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tradrenn
Jan 3, 2010, 6:17 AM
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dbogardus wrote: Are nuts carried up together so you can use extendable draws after they are placed?
Generally YES. Imagine caring every stopper on its own biner, that would take a lot of room on your harness, wouldn't it ?
How are you going to rack up your draws ?
Are you going to carry 12 2 foot sling around your shoulders ?
Depending on were you climb, of course, you wont need to carry 12 extendable draws, a few foot longs will do just fine, especially if the route goes in straight line.
dbogardus wrote: why would each cam get its own biner?
Because it sucks having 2 cams on one and every time you want to place a cam, you will have to clip the other one back to your harness. Now you have a cam without a biner and you have to clip a draw to it, in order to clip a rope to your cam. Don't you think that's a royal pain in the ass ?
If you carry one cam per biner then you just have a simple decision to make, whether to clip a rope to it or extend it.
HTH
V.
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Myxomatosis
Jan 3, 2010, 2:24 PM
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qtm wrote: west_by_god_virginia wrote: first of all, i would never clip in to my nuts. ow. second, i dunno why noone else mentioned this. adding a biner to each nut could add huge amounts of weight to your rack. light is right bro Not necessarily. If all your pro has a biner, then you don't need to have two biners on all your runners. You could carry your runners over the shoulder with a single biner apiece and use the racking biner to connect the runner to the pro.
Yeah but sometimes you don't use every nut.... And you would still have to take runners.
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Couloirman
Jan 3, 2010, 4:31 PM
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I carry each full set of nuts on 2 biners; one biner has the odd number sizes, and one the even. That way if I drop either I can still have most nuts of any given size range and since there's almost always more than one placement in front of me(I only lead 5.10 and lower so placements are generally easier than if climbing harder) I can almost always find the right size. The exception is my DMM offsets which get their own biner cause I only have the 5 alloy offsets.
I also rack a couple small cams on the same biner because its harder to find the right size in the small cams first try, whereas I can easily choose the correct size for a large camalot almost every time.
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qtm
Jan 4, 2010, 3:04 PM
Post #24 of 26
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Myxomatosis wrote: qtm wrote: west_by_god_virginia wrote: first of all, i would never clip in to my nuts. ow. second, i dunno why noone else mentioned this. adding a biner to each nut could add huge amounts of weight to your rack. light is right bro Not necessarily. If all your pro has a biner, then you don't need to have two biners on all your runners. You could carry your runners over the shoulder with a single biner apiece and use the racking biner to connect the runner to the pro. Yeah but sometimes you don't use every nut.... And you would still have to take runners.
But you no longer need to have 2 biners on each runner as all the pro has it's own biner that can be clipped.
If you have 10 nuts on a single biner, 8 cams racked individually, and 14 runners tripled, that's 37 biners.
If you rack the nuts individually, you don't need two biners on each runner, so you're only carrying 32 biners. That's assuming you want to ensure you can use every piece of pro you've got.
So yeah, racking individually can decrease the weight of your rack. But it's not worth the savings (to me anyway) considering how much room they'll take up on the gear loops and the hassle of trying to select the proper nut off the harness.
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guangzhou
Jan 6, 2010, 8:51 AM
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I carry lots of gear on routes, especially long multi-pitch routes or first ascents.
My standard rack consist of two set of Camelots from .5 to #2
Sometime I add two 3 or 4, really depends on the route. Each of those is on a separate binner.
For tcu's, I carry the four smallest aliens on one binner, and four metolius tcus on one binner. None of them have a sling one, they were all cut off because of age.
Nuts, I carry a set and a half of DMM Walnuts on one binner, and a Set and half of Rocks on another binner.
I carry sixteen 24 inch slings tripled over with double binners. (I don't carry anything shorter.)
A webollte and two or three 48ince runner. The three 48 inch runners are on one binner, the webolete has a binner two.
I carry 5 or 6 loose binner to set up belays. 90% of the time, I also have the five smallest tri-cams all on one binner.
My trad rack, I use small wire-gate from Black Diamond on everything. Nutrinos.
All this hangs from my harness, I hate gear slings. On short routes, i trim where needed. Norlally I long up decide what I won't need to bring. Number 2 Camelot on a finger crack for example.
Sometime I clip my rope directly to a binner and nut, but not often. Depends on the placement and other things. I definitely feel better with a sling on a nut.
Myy two cents
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