Forums: Climbing Information: General:
Rappeling Question
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for General

Premier Sponsor:

 


adamrunne


Feb 7, 2010, 2:26 PM
Post #1 of 24 (3179 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 23, 2010
Posts: 4

Rappeling Question
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

     I recently picked up the book Mountaineering: The Freedom of the Hills. (Great resource.) I'll try to explain the rappelling technique it describes to the best of my ability and then ask a couple questions.
The text shows the anchor set up with web slings and/or static rope, using two opposite and opposed carabiners as the main clip-in point for the climbing rope. This part I understand, but the example provided uses the rope from the middle, so the rope is folded over in half, and then you attach your rappel device to both strands of rope.
Is it acceptable or safe to rappel with the climbing rope tied to the two carabiners with a figure eight knot, and then using only one side of an ATC to rappel down a face? I understand the half rope technique is used to retrieve your rope when you're done, but what about for shorter rappels where I can scramble back to the top of the face?


rockforlife


Feb 7, 2010, 2:34 PM
Post #2 of 24 (3175 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 14, 2002
Posts: 563

Re: [adamrunne] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

adamrunne wrote:
I recently picked up the book Mountaineering: The Freedom of the Hills. (Great resource.) I'll try to explain the rappelling technique it describes to the best of my ability and then ask a couple questions.
The text shows the anchor set up with web slings and/or static rope, using two opposite and opposed carabiners as the main clip-in point for the climbing rope. This part I understand, but the example provided uses the rope from the middle, so the rope is folded over in half, and then you attach your rappel device to both strands of rope.
Is it acceptable or safe to rappel with the climbing rope tied to the two carabiners with a figure eight knot, and then using only one side of an ATC to rappel down a face? I understand the half rope technique is used to retrieve your rope when you're done, but what about for shorter rappels where I can scramble back to the top of the face?

Yes you can do that, it will be harder to control, so be careful. also make sure your knot is done very well.


rockforlife


Feb 7, 2010, 2:36 PM
Post #3 of 24 (3166 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 14, 2002
Posts: 563

Re: [adamrunne] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

but can i ask why you only want one strand? you said this would be for short raps, so i guess i don't understand the point?

Also make sure you have knots in the ends of your ropes.


o and find some one to show you all this...


adamrunne


Feb 7, 2010, 2:38 PM
Post #4 of 24 (3162 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 23, 2010
Posts: 4

Re: [rockforlife] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I was just curious if that was the only way to do it. Thanks for the info.


reg


Feb 7, 2010, 3:23 PM
Post #5 of 24 (3134 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 1560

Re: [adamrunne] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

how ya gonna get ur rope back? is it a walk off (i'm thinkin). if a walk off, is the anchor within reach? is the anchor permenant? if so and you can get to ur rope after the rap and ur doing this because the climb is 150-160 feet then get 170 feet of 6 mill for the other half of the full lenght rap. caution with this as the 6 mil moves faster then ur climbing rope so it should be 10 feet longer. tie a double fish to connect ropes together with the climbing rope through the biners and the dlb fish down rock a couple feet. make sence? always tie knots in the ends and a prussic or other friction knot as a back up.


(This post was edited by reg on Feb 7, 2010, 3:24 PM)


TarHeelEMT


Feb 7, 2010, 8:35 PM
Post #6 of 24 (3073 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 20, 2009
Posts: 724

Re: [reg] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

reg wrote:
how ya gonna get ur rope back? is it a walk off (i'm thinkin). if a walk off, is the anchor within reach? is the anchor permenant? if so and you can get to ur rope after the rap and ur doing this because the climb is 150-160 feet then get 170 feet of 6 mill for the other half of the full lenght rap. caution with this as the 6 mil moves faster then ur climbing rope so it should be 10 feet longer. tie a double fish to connect ropes together with the climbing rope through the biners and the dlb fish down rock a couple feet. make sence? always tie knots in the ends and a prussic or other friction knot as a back up.

Sounds like he's rappelling for the sake of rappelling.


majid_sabet


Feb 7, 2010, 9:35 PM
Post #7 of 24 (3056 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 8390

Re: [adamrunne] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

adamrunne wrote:
I recently picked up the book Mountaineering: The Freedom of the Hills. (Great resource.) I'll try to explain the rappelling technique it describes to the best of my ability and then ask a couple questions.
The text shows the anchor set up with web slings and/or static rope, using two opposite and opposed carabiners as the main clip-in point for the climbing rope. This part I understand, but the example provided uses the rope from the middle, so the rope is folded over in half, and then you attach your rappel device to both strands of rope.
Is it acceptable or safe to rappel with the climbing rope tied to the two carabiners with a figure eight knot, and then using only one side of an ATC to rappel down a face? I understand the half rope technique is used to retrieve your rope when you're done, but what about for shorter rappels where I can scramble back to the top of the face?

Rappelling its sounds so fun and easy with few clipping things here and there but believe me, more people die from Rappelling than climbing Everest


clc


Feb 7, 2010, 9:38 PM
Post #8 of 24 (3053 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 12, 2005
Posts: 495

Re: [majid_sabet] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

more people die rappelling, because you have complete noobies like this guy out there trying to figure it out.


mhix13


Feb 8, 2010, 5:47 AM
Post #9 of 24 (3010 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 12, 2008
Posts: 85

Re: [rockforlife] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

rockforlife wrote:
Also make sure you have knots in the ends of your ropes.

+1

Saved me from a 10 foot ground fall a few weeks ago.


bill413


Feb 8, 2010, 10:59 AM
Post #10 of 24 (2954 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674

Re: [mhix13] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I frequently do something similar in a top-rope situation. The top can be accessible, but via a longish walk. Or, it can be used in a teaching situation for an instructor to get back to the bottom.

As was inferred above, you will have less friction in the set-up than if you are getting friction from two strands of rope. But it's certainly manageable & fine.


jeepnphreak


Feb 8, 2010, 1:20 PM
Post #11 of 24 (2908 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 28, 2008
Posts: 1259

Re: [mhix13] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

mhix13 wrote:
rockforlife wrote:
Also make sure you have knots in the ends of your ropes.

+1

Saved me from a 10 foot ground fall a few weeks ago.

Saved my ass a couple of years ago. I was comming of a new to me 3 pitch in the dark in the rain and zipped past the anchers on the way down. My hand hit the knots that were tied in 2 meters above the ends. If those knots were nto there I may not be here.


redlude97


Feb 8, 2010, 2:02 PM
Post #12 of 24 (2880 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 27, 2008
Posts: 990

Re: [bill413] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

bill413 wrote:
I frequently do something similar in a top-rope situation. The top can be accessible, but via a longish walk. Or, it can be used in a teaching situation for an instructor to get back to the bottom.

As was inferred above, you will have less friction in the set-up than if you are getting friction from two strands of rope. But it's certainly manageable & fine.
If you are setting up a toprope by accessing the top anchors by walking, and you want to rap down to save time, wouldn't you just run the rope through your anchor setup to the middle of the rope and rap off both like a conventional setup? I've done this numerous times. I can't for the life of me think of one where it would make more sense to tie into the anchor with the end of your rope and rap down. Wouldn't you then have to walk back up and set up your toprope again?


ozoneclimber


Feb 8, 2010, 2:36 PM
Post #13 of 24 (2857 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Posts: 250

Re: [adamrunne] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

A book/website that I would suggest checking out if you are looking for information on single line rigging... "OnRope1" by Bruce Smith. It goes into basically all aspects of rigging, whether it be for rescue or caving... Any questions that you may have can be answered by that book or the man that wrote it...

-Bobby


Adk


Feb 8, 2010, 2:58 PM
Post #14 of 24 (2844 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 2, 2006
Posts: 1085

Re: [adamrunne] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

adamrunne wrote:
I was just curious if that was the only way to do it. Thanks for the info.

The only way to rapel ? With one strand?
Or are you asking can you rapel with two strands?
Do you know how to do that?
How about a back up such as a prusik?

Have you had any formal instruction?


adamrunne


Feb 8, 2010, 3:58 PM
Post #15 of 24 (2829 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 23, 2010
Posts: 4

Re: [Adk] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I went on an outing when I was a boyscout and thinking about that experience sparked my interest, so i had been looking into it. I tied up an auto-stop on 7mm line using a double fisherman's knot and a prusik, clipped into the leg of my harness. Other than that I've been practicing on much-less-than-vertical hills, with the tips and pointers I've received from my local climbing store. I'm feeling very comfortable with the rigging and the safety aspects of it, and i think next week I'll go with a buddy of mine who is into climbing and hit a real rock face. (I will definitely be tying knots in the ends of my rope.)


bill413


Feb 8, 2010, 4:26 PM
Post #16 of 24 (2820 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674

Re: [redlude97] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

redlude97 wrote:
bill413 wrote:
I frequently do something similar in a top-rope situation. The top can be accessible, but via a longish walk. Or, it can be used in a teaching situation for an instructor to get back to the bottom.

As was inferred above, you will have less friction in the set-up than if you are getting friction from two strands of rope. But it's certainly manageable & fine.
If you are setting up a toprope by accessing the top anchors by walking, and you want to rap down to save time, wouldn't you just run the rope through your anchor setup to the middle of the rope and rap off both like a conventional setup? I've done this numerous times. I can't for the life of me think of one where it would make more sense to tie into the anchor with the end of your rope and rap down. Wouldn't you then have to walk back up and set up your toprope again?

One scenario is where the master point of the anchors for the climbing rope is over the edge - well down from the top, but it isn't pleasant to walk down to them; or where the cliff is more than half a rope-length long & the master point extended down so a half rope can be used to TR it.

Hope I've explained that well enough.


redlude97


Feb 8, 2010, 5:16 PM
Post #17 of 24 (2801 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 27, 2008
Posts: 990

Re: [bill413] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

bill413 wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
bill413 wrote:
I frequently do something similar in a top-rope situation. The top can be accessible, but via a longish walk. Or, it can be used in a teaching situation for an instructor to get back to the bottom.

As was inferred above, you will have less friction in the set-up than if you are getting friction from two strands of rope. But it's certainly manageable & fine.
If you are setting up a toprope by accessing the top anchors by walking, and you want to rap down to save time, wouldn't you just run the rope through your anchor setup to the middle of the rope and rap off both like a conventional setup? I've done this numerous times. I can't for the life of me think of one where it would make more sense to tie into the anchor with the end of your rope and rap down. Wouldn't you then have to walk back up and set up your toprope again?

One scenario is where the master point of the anchors for the climbing rope is over the edge - well down from the top, but it isn't pleasant to walk down to them; or where the cliff is more than half a rope-length long & the master point extended down so a half rope can be used to TR it.

Hope I've explained that well enough.
So then do you carry 2 ropes? One for rappelling and one of for setting up the toprope?


Adk


Feb 9, 2010, 7:40 AM
Post #18 of 24 (2727 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 2, 2006
Posts: 1085

Re: [redlude97] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

It is generally the practice to just rap with one rope threading both strands of the rope through your rap/belay device.
If you set up a top rope you can rapel on that same rope to get to the bottom.Wink

Do this. Go get proper instruction or you refuse to do this read another book. If that doesn't sink in do this; This is not always a great thing to do but go look at every video that you can find online.
Remember: If you screw up you're gonna die!
No joke!Pirate


adamrunne


Feb 10, 2010, 6:55 PM
Post #19 of 24 (2644 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 23, 2010
Posts: 4

Re: [Adk] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

There's something about the notion of serious injury/death in the event of screwing up that attracts me to things like climbing. Don't get me wrong I'm all about safety and proper instruction and correct rigging techniques. I love the technical aspect of climbing, but much like motorcycling for me, the idea that "if you screw up, you're gonna die" is the attracting factor. Thanks for your help.


malcolm777b


Feb 10, 2010, 7:07 PM
Post #20 of 24 (2638 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 8, 2009
Posts: 204

Re: [redlude97] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

redlude97 wrote:
bill413 wrote:
I frequently do something similar in a top-rope situation. The top can be accessible, but via a longish walk. Or, it can be used in a teaching situation for an instructor to get back to the bottom.

As was inferred above, you will have less friction in the set-up than if you are getting friction from two strands of rope. But it's certainly manageable & fine.
If you are setting up a toprope by accessing the top anchors by walking, and you want to rap down to save time, wouldn't you just run the rope through your anchor setup to the middle of the rope and rap off both like a conventional setup? I've done this numerous times. I can't for the life of me think of one where it would make more sense to tie into the anchor with the end of your rope and rap down. Wouldn't you then have to walk back up and set up your toprope again?

The only time I ever do this is doing single pitch aid, though it also makes sense if solo aiding. I'm sure the OP has no intention of doing this now though...


avalon420


Feb 10, 2010, 8:32 PM
Post #21 of 24 (2620 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 281

Re: [adamrunne] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

adamrunne wrote:
I tied up an auto-stop on 7mm line using a double fisherman's knot and a prusik, clipped into the leg of my harness. (I will definitely be tying knots in the ends of my rope.)
UIAA says DO NOT clip back-up prussik into leg loop as it is possible (actually guaranteed w/ the auto block/French prussik) in the event of an accident for the leg to be pulled up toward the belay devoce and when the prussik hits the belay device it can (and has ) released. THE BETTER WAY: Rig device on a draw w/ lockers on both ends one locker on device, the other on harness. Rig prussik on harness locker and attach said prossik to brake end of rope. This is THE UIAA accepted method, and they are smarter than us (and the current-but-outdated edition of Freedom).You may also rig a prussik to the weight bering end of the rope as I typically do, the 7mm cord is more than strong enough for this.


(This post was edited by avalon420 on Feb 10, 2010, 8:41 PM)


dovyman


Feb 11, 2010, 9:50 PM
Post #22 of 24 (2565 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 13, 2008
Posts: 9

Re: [jeepnphreak] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jeepnphreak wrote:
mhix13 wrote:
rockforlife wrote:
Also make sure you have knots in the ends of your ropes.

+1

Saved me from a 10 foot ground fall a few weeks ago.

Saved my ass a couple of years ago. I was comming of a new to me 3 pitch in the dark in the rain and zipped past the anchers on the way down. My hand hit the knots that were tied in 2 meters above the ends. If those knots were nto there I may not be here.

Also make sure to untie ends of said ropes before pulling or you will be really fucked. Definitely have turned an hour descent into a 3 hour descent by making that mistake after a long tiring climb.

Personally I never understood why people enjoy rappelling just for the sake of rappelling. It's fucking scary! You're trusting everything to a couple pieces of cord, or having to ditch gear. Give me a walk off any day!


tombvortx


Feb 11, 2010, 10:32 PM
Post #23 of 24 (2558 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 26

Re: [avalon420] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Adamrunne, Dude please keep this rappelling stuff simple for now. One way - one set-up. Once you get some mileage -assuming you survive long enough - you can expand your repertoire of rappelling methods. If you can afford or can get some instruction from an experienced person do so right away.

The life you put in jeopardy might not be only yours. The people on this forum trying to help you are correct; one of the most dangerous acts you can do climbing is rappel.


dugl33


Feb 11, 2010, 11:04 PM
Post #24 of 24 (2549 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 6, 2009
Posts: 740

Re: [adamrunne] Rappeling Question [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

There is nothing inherently wrong or unsafe with what you have described, just be aware that you will have less friction.

On ropes less than say 9.8mm or so it can be downright hard to hold on with a single strand.

Also, what would be the point? A scenario where this would make sense is if you did a climb more than half a rope-length tall, and you only had the one rope to get down. You or your partner could go down the single strand and tie the other rope on to be pulled up. Or maybe you are fixing lines to mechanically ascend later.

Otherwise, there's no point to what your suggesting, just less friction and a rope you can no longer pull to retrieve.


Forums : Climbing Information : General

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook