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mttgross
Feb 11, 2010, 2:35 AM
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So I am starting to buy my own rack. Now, For Clipping into pro I was going to buy biners for draws and then buy slings and make them so if i need to I can extend them. I did this with someone else's rack, but he made the decision to and it seemed like a good idea. Is this a good idea to do if I don't exactly have money for draws ? Also, what is the difference between a sling and a runner ??
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johnwesely
Feb 11, 2010, 2:42 AM
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mttgross wrote: So I am starting to buy my own rack. Now, For Clipping into pro I was going to buy biners for draws and then buy slings and make them so if i need to I can extend them. I did this with someone else's rack, but he made the decision to and it seemed like a good idea. Is this a good idea to do if I don't exactly have money for draws ? Also, what is the difference between a sling and a runner ??
It is a good idea, but doing it is more expensive than buying quickdraws. If you tie your own slings it will probably be close, but if you buy fancy dyneema runners it can be quite expensive. I would get nice biners to begin with and tie the slings if money is an issue. When you replace the sling with something nice you will not be out much, but when you decide you want to replace all of your biners because they are two heavy or whatever reason you have.
Good Luck.
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phillycheeze08
Feb 11, 2010, 2:42 AM
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you could i suppose, but a set of draws shouldnt be all that much more expensive. i know some companies make extendable draws, but i dont remember what brand they were or what they cost, only that they were a bit pricier... i think maybe mammut and wild country if i remember correctly?
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LoneWolf1986
Feb 11, 2010, 2:51 AM
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You really should have some of both. IMO making your own draws in different and adjustable sizes would be cheaper than buying draws, however, quickdraws are really convenient and a nice piece of equipment to have on any climbing rack.
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olderic
Feb 11, 2010, 2:52 AM
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trad or sport? Used to be "rack" implied sport but I would no longer assume that. If it's trad then get slings - you don't need spectra or dynema - nylon is fine (plus has the advantage that it works better for friction knots if you ever need to ascend the rope). If you are talking sport just get a package of cheap draws.
"sling" and "runner" are pretty much the same. If you want to split hairs then a "runner" is a deployed sling (or something else) used for running protection. If you need a definition of running protection.....
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johnwesely
Feb 11, 2010, 3:14 AM
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olderic wrote: If you need a definition of running protection.....
I know what you mean, but I don't think I have heard that term used before.
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ensonik
Feb 11, 2010, 3:28 AM
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Another good reason to skip the draws is that your pro is less likely to walk or pop out with slings. Obviously, if we're talking sport, it doesn't really matter.
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avalon420
Feb 11, 2010, 4:13 AM
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johnwesely wrote: olderic wrote: If you need a definition of running protection..... I know what you mean, but I don't think I have heard that term used before.
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johnwesely
Feb 11, 2010, 1:47 PM
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avalon420 wrote: johnwesely wrote: olderic wrote: If you need a definition of running protection..... I know what you mean, but I don't think I have heard that term used before. Ive heard this from a partner who was from England before, I think its mostly a euro thing.
Thanks.
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hansundfritz
Feb 11, 2010, 4:48 PM
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The Brits often refer to a piece of lead protection as a "runner" as in -- "I think is see a good runner just ahead." They used to use the term "running belay" for the same thing. A running belay was a piece of pro in the middle of a pitch. They would then call the belay anchor simply a "belay" -- as in "I think I'll stop here and bring you up. I found a good belay."
The use of artificial aids (pitons) to create running belays was considered unsporting in British climbing culture until after WWII, although leaders used to unrope and thread the rope around chockstones or drape the rope over flakes in order to provide some protection against a lead fall.
This is what the Brits came to call "free climbing" -- essentially soloing a pitch trailing a rope to bring up the followers once a good belay feature (or merely a stance) was found. This was in contrast to what the Germans and other continentals were doing by using pitons to create belay anchors and running belays. The Brits labeled this "artificial climbing" and derided it as "iron-mongery" or "steeple-jacking." The new continental methods often included what we would recognize as aid tactics.
It was also considered unsporting to use anything but natural features -- spikes, flakes, chockstones -- to create belay anchors. Pitches generally were short, going from feature to feature up the crag. Some older routes had something like 9 or 10 pitches -- now done in 2 or 3.
In any event, this is the origin of the "leader must not fall" ethic, because lead falls were usually unprotected by either running belays or decent belay anchors and often led to the death of the leader -- and sometimes the death of the rest of the party, depending on the circumstances.
In my experience, Brits tend to be a bit less obsessed with building SRENE (or whatever) belay anchors -- probably a cultural carry-over from this older tradition.
(Okay -- that got a little OT. Sorry OP.)
Maybe this should got to a new thread in the History forum.
(This post was edited by hansundfritz on Feb 11, 2010, 4:50 PM)
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acorneau
Feb 11, 2010, 4:57 PM
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Thanks for the informative post!
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kachoong
Feb 11, 2010, 5:00 PM
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mttgross wrote: So I am starting to buy my own rack. Now, For Clipping into pro I was going to buy biners for draws and then buy slings and make them so if i need to I can extend them. I did this with someone else's rack, but he made the decision to and it seemed like a good idea. Is this a good idea to do if I don't exactly have money for draws ? Also, what is the difference between a sling and a runner ??
To start with you should be fine to just go with a set of draws, plus a few single and double slings. Everyone's done their share of cannibalizing draws on trad climbs. Then once you have a bit more money get more slings and single biners to make permanent "draws" for trad. Once you have both options you can mix/interchange as needed depending on the climb(s) you'll be doing on any particular day of cragging.
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dingus
Feb 11, 2010, 5:01 PM
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johnwesely wrote: olderic wrote: If you need a definition of running protection..... I know what you mean, but I don't think I have heard that term used before.
A running belay is the essence of 5th class climbing, its definitional you might say.
DMT
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kennoyce
Feb 11, 2010, 5:03 PM
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In reply to: trad or sport? Used to be "rack" implied sport but I would no longer assume that.
Really? If I hear "rack" it certainly implies trad not sport. If someones "rack" consists of only draws (as in sport climbing) then I really wouldn't consider it a rack.
As for the OP's question, since I'm assuming you are talking about trad (from the reference to the rack, and the fact that this is in the gear heads forum and not the sport forum) I would also counsel to either buy sown slings, or tie your own to make extendable draws.
If you are talking sport, then just get some decent pre-made draws (you can ususlly find deals where a pre-made draw is less than the cost of just the two biners if purchased separately).
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dingus
Feb 11, 2010, 5:04 PM
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hansundfritz wrote: In my experience, Brits tend to be a bit less obsessed with building SRENE (or whatever) belay anchors -- probably a cultural carry-over from this older tradition.
I think its rather a recognition that SRENE is for the most part unproven guide-teaching bullshit and is a function of American obsession with safety.
DMT
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hansundfritz
Feb 11, 2010, 5:23 PM
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Dingus: Well, I certainly agree that many of us here in the states are guilty of over-building, etc. But I've been belayed many times off a single nut in Britain -- sometimes a single bad nut. And this goes back to the mid-80s when nobody had yet heard of the SRENE (or whatever) idea.
So, I don't think that it's a reaction against recent American developments -- but is coming out of this older tradition when a belay anchor wasn't going to save you anyway if you came off.
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johnwesely
Feb 11, 2010, 5:24 PM
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dingus wrote: johnwesely wrote: olderic wrote: If you need a definition of running protection..... I know what you mean, but I don't think I have heard that term used before. A running belay is the essence of 5th class climbing, its definitional you might say. DMT
Now I know what a running belay means too. Maybe I should write a book.
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dingus
Feb 11, 2010, 5:36 PM
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johnwesely wrote: dingus wrote: johnwesely wrote: olderic wrote: If you need a definition of running protection..... I know what you mean, but I don't think I have heard that term used before. A running belay is the essence of 5th class climbing, its definitional you might say. DMT Now I know what a running belay means too. Maybe I should write a book.
You might try reading one first....
Hah!
DMT
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I_do
Feb 11, 2010, 5:43 PM
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dingus wrote: hansundfritz wrote: In my experience, Brits tend to be a bit less obsessed with building SRENE (or whatever) belay anchors -- probably a cultural carry-over from this older tradition. I think its rather a recognition that SRENE is for the most part unproven guide-teaching bullshit and is a function of American obsession with safety. DMT
What's your stance on belaying with an 8th and single clove for safety?
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dingus
Feb 11, 2010, 5:45 PM
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Don't care for it myself. How about you?
DMT
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dugl33
Feb 11, 2010, 6:01 PM
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mttgross wrote: So I am starting to buy my own rack. Now, For Clipping into pro I was going to buy biners for draws and then buy slings and make them so if i need to I can extend them. I did this with someone else's rack, but he made the decision to and it seemed like a good idea. Is this a good idea to do if I don't exactly have money for draws ? Also, what is the difference between a sling and a runner ??
Take advantage of a package deal, such as this one...
http://www.mountaingear.com/...e/MG/item/640534/N/0
That's less than $5 apiece for good biners, and the sling is free. Supplement this with 5 full length slings with biners, and you've got a good start. You could even strip off the biners and change out for full length nylon runners. Personally, I'd skip the tie-your-own business. A fine solution but you have to keep a constant eye on the knots and for me its not worth it. Also skip the Omega Pacific packages. They are crap. Get metolius if you want a budget package.
http://www.mountaingear.com/...e/MG/item/210196/N/0
Finer points just depends on where you climb. Are the routes pretty much straight up or do they wander? Are they mostly gear or mostlly bolts. Bolts are more forgiving of shorter clips as they are multi-directional. With gear you need to be a bit more careful.
(On the other theme running here, I have seen a big cultural difference climbing in yosemite. A "euro" will frequently tie off a single small "tree" of 6" diameter with a single sling, clip it with a single locker, tie in to the locker with a single clove-hitch, and hang their autolock device off the same biner. Those cliff saplings are pretty tough but sometimes I have to wonder...)
(This post was edited by dugl33 on Feb 11, 2010, 6:14 PM)
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johnwesely
Feb 11, 2010, 6:06 PM
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dingus wrote: johnwesely wrote: dingus wrote: johnwesely wrote: olderic wrote: If you need a definition of running protection..... I know what you mean, but I don't think I have heard that term used before. A running belay is the essence of 5th class climbing, its definitional you might say. DMT Now I know what a running belay means too. Maybe I should write a book. You might try reading one first.... Hah! DMT
I actually read climbing books all of the time. My school library has a few cases full. It makes me rather unproductive.
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johnwesely
Feb 11, 2010, 6:11 PM
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dugl33 wrote: mttgross wrote: So I am starting to buy my own rack. Now, For Clipping into pro I was going to buy biners for draws and then buy slings and make them so if i need to I can extend them. I did this with someone else's rack, but he made the decision to and it seemed like a good idea. Is this a good idea to do if I don't exactly have money for draws ? Also, what is the difference between a sling and a runner ?? Take advantage of a package deal, such as this one... http://www.mountaingear.com/...e/MG/item/640534/N/0 That's less than $5 apiece for good biners, and the sling is free.
10 dollars a biner.
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dugl33
Feb 11, 2010, 6:15 PM
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johnwesely wrote: dugl33 wrote: mttgross wrote: So I am starting to buy my own rack. Now, For Clipping into pro I was going to buy biners for draws and then buy slings and make them so if i need to I can extend them. I did this with someone else's rack, but he made the decision to and it seemed like a good idea. Is this a good idea to do if I don't exactly have money for draws ? Also, what is the difference between a sling and a runner ?? Take advantage of a package deal, such as this one... http://www.mountaingear.com/...e/MG/item/640534/N/0 That's less than $5 apiece for good biners, and the sling is free. 10 dollars a biner.
Whoops. Shit! More coffee...
edit to add --
maybe something more like this...
http://www.mountaingear.com/...G/item/112493/N/1026
(This post was edited by dugl33 on Feb 11, 2010, 6:21 PM)
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johnwesely
Feb 11, 2010, 6:17 PM
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dugl33 wrote: johnwesely wrote: dugl33 wrote: mttgross wrote: So I am starting to buy my own rack. Now, For Clipping into pro I was going to buy biners for draws and then buy slings and make them so if i need to I can extend them. I did this with someone else's rack, but he made the decision to and it seemed like a good idea. Is this a good idea to do if I don't exactly have money for draws ? Also, what is the difference between a sling and a runner ?? Take advantage of a package deal, such as this one... http://www.mountaingear.com/...e/MG/item/640534/N/0 That's less than $5 apiece for good biners, and the sling is free. 10 dollars a biner. Whoops. Shit! More coffee...
I know I could use some.
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