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marc801


Mar 19, 2010, 4:12 PM
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happiegrrrl wrote:
I think some of you aren't recognizing that some poetic license lots of self aggrandizing, ego stroking bull shit has been taken used in the writing of this piece.
Fixed that for ya.


Shroom


Mar 19, 2010, 8:31 PM
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I think the negative comments on the site should give a bit of a clue as to the n00bness of your parenting skillz.


funnelator


Mar 19, 2010, 9:45 PM
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Re: [Shroom] Why I Want My Daughter to be a Climber... [In reply to]
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Joe is a stand up climber, a stand up guy, and a stand up dad, so all you negative nay saying rc.com punters can bugger off.

Best put on your helmets punters for there are a few well targeted water balloons headed your way.


carabiner96


Mar 19, 2010, 9:54 PM
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funnelator wrote:
Joe is a stand up climber, a stand up guy, and a stand up dad, so all you negative nay saying rc.com punters can bugger off.

Best put on your helmets punters for there are a few well targeted water balloons headed your way.

CDB!!


guangzhou


Mar 19, 2010, 10:17 PM
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Re: [carabiner96] Why I Want My Daughter to be a Climber... [In reply to]
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I enjoyed the link and reading this piece and I have to admit, I doubt my parenting style will be much different.

As a climber I can completely see your point of view on dealing with now climbers.

I too find stories of most people's lives a bt dull, and I try not to hang around or socialize with dull people.

As a Middle school, I am impressed with how much time you spend with your daughter. I see a strong father daughter relationship.

I am not sure what everyone above are complaining about. Sounds like they are not living a life consumed by climbing and can't relate to a family who is. I don't see you forcing your daughter in the writing, I just see you sharing your passion.

Cheers


iknowfear


Mar 19, 2010, 10:19 PM
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Re: [Shroom] Why I Want My Daughter to be a Climber... [In reply to]
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Shroom wrote:
joeantol wrote:
What aspect of the writing didn't you like?

This
In reply to:
Once she began to walk, I encouraged her to scramble up scaffolding and climb on buildings while I chanted our mantra: “Bones heal, pain is temporary, boys dig scars and glory is forever.” Now she requires no encouragement. Her fearless stunts on the playground have caused at least one overly protective mom to drag her little snowflake from play time with Kelly. My wife tolerates these antics but does not necessarily approve.

is a little more polished version of this http://thegardendiet.com/images/climb/

And it's a stock photo on your piece, but what does that little watermark on the lower left say?

thanks for the reminder of that epic father bashing post fest!


(This post was edited by iknowfear on Mar 19, 2010, 10:22 PM)


boadman


Mar 19, 2010, 10:47 PM
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Re: [joeantol] Why I Want My Daughter to be a Climber... [In reply to]
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joeantol wrote:
Joe in Babble: http://tinyurl.com/yazwm7h

Commentary on the site, both positive and otherwise is encouraged.

Best of all, it's Kelly birthday!

Enjoy

I'm guessing that she won't be that psyched on climbing in a couple of years. Expectations are the bane of parenting.


onceahardman


Mar 19, 2010, 11:12 PM
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Re: [joeantol] Why I Want My Daughter to be a Climber... [In reply to]
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I'm desperate to recapture my pre-child life and go back to taking off-the-grid vacations. The only way that will happen is if Kelly can join us. I don't even want to have another child, in part because it would delay my return to the mountains.

Joe, you are missing the most wonderful experience that humans can experience, and you don't even know it, because your focus is on yourself.

I predict you will be a bitter old man, when your body eventually breaks down. I wouldn't blame your daughter if she ends up mocking you for your frailty. I pity you.


(This post was edited by onceahardman on Mar 19, 2010, 11:13 PM)


joeantol


Mar 20, 2010, 12:13 AM
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Re: [BriClimbs] Why I Want My Daughter to be a Climber... [In reply to]
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You obviously don't have children of your own so your opinion, while interesting,is basically worthless. You don't get a screed unless you breed.

So when your dad had you fishing and carving hot dog sticks you loved every minute of it at the tender age of 6 or 7? I suspect there's a bit of selective memory here and you were, from time to time, a petulant little twerp. Sometimes you did what you wanted and others what mom and dad made you do.

Kelly's been to her share of zoos and museums. Her face not only 'lights up', like your cousins, at the sight of caged animals, but she gets equally excited at the idea of skiing (or snowboarding), climbing and other sports. Activities, I might add, she does with her father and mother, not 'The Nanny'


joeantol


Mar 20, 2010, 12:32 AM
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Re: [Claypool] Why I Want My Daughter to be a Climber... [In reply to]
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Hey Clay,

Either you didn't read my piece or didn't read the one you posted. To whit:

<snip>
In many instances, the unhealthy behavior begins when the amount of time spent on the child’s achievements outweighs the time parents spend on their own lives and pursuits
</snip>

I am attempting to make the amount of time spent on my (and my wife's) pursuits exactly the same as my child's. If we climb together as a family is this considered "obsessive"?

Yes, as I stated in the essay, Kelly doesn't always want to climb. Sometimes she doesn't want to go to school or eat her veggies. I suppose if we substitute "climbing" for "Disney" the topic will be more acceptable?

Just asking.


marc801


Mar 20, 2010, 12:32 AM
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Re: [joeantol] Why I Want My Daughter to be a Climber... [In reply to]
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joeantol wrote:
You obviously don't have children of your own so your opinion, while interesting,is basically worthless. You don't get a screed unless you breed.
Bullshit. Don't trot out this lame justification for your superior, arrogant attitude. I don't own fish, but I know you're not supposed to fill the aquarium with Mountain Dew or coffee.* What you do with your spawn affects me. They're the ones that run into my car because they're too busy texting* about their near death climbing day with dad. And breeding isn't a unique talent - humans have been doing it for tens of thousands of years. Your daughter isn't special to anyone but you.

[*: Thanks to Bill Maher for allowing me to plagiarize without consent.]


carabiner96


Mar 20, 2010, 12:46 AM
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joeantol wrote:
You obviously don't have children of your own so your opinion, while interesting,is basically worthless. You don't get a screed unless you breed.

He doesn't have the background to have the opinion that you're a douche?


joeantol


Mar 20, 2010, 1:31 AM
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Re: [marc801] Why I Want My Daughter to be a Climber... [In reply to]
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You mention my 'superior, arrogant attitude' then quote Bill Maher? Is this intended to be ironic?

Fact: As a parent I have knowledge about child rearing that those who've yet to validate their fertility do not. That doesn't make me a good (or bad) parent, but it does mean my opinions are based on reality and experience

Fact: As a rock climber I have knowledge that non-climbers do not (perhaps this you'll understand). If someone opined on the dangers and virtues of climbing, yet never spent a moment in the vertical realm I think most on this forum would agree that his or her thoughts were basically worthless. The same goes for thoughts on child rearing by the childless.

There's an old saying: "If you've only read the recipe, you haven't cooked the dish"


Shroom


Mar 20, 2010, 1:43 AM
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Dude, you have a six year old, so you have six years of parenting experience. Right so far?

Is the overwhelming consensus wrong just because you are right in your own mind? You do what you want, and do not listen to many of us who have multiple parenting experiences well beyond six freaking years.

You have stated your position in what I think you wanted to be a cool, cutesy story where everyone would say "oh what an awesome dad you are." Now you have heard otherwise, don't like it, and are whining that we don't see things as you do.

Maybe it is time to think you are wrong. Maybe save this self congratulatory piece of crap and give it to her when she runs away from you later in life. Given the path you have determined for her, she will run away.


Shroom


Mar 20, 2010, 1:46 AM
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In reply to:
Soon after my daughter was born, I began her training. Kelly was barely a week old when I attempted to calculate her Ape Index — the ratio of wingspan to height. I despaired when I came up with a decidedly unfavorable score, but I still loved this little pink legume even if she lacked the physical endowments of a great alpinist. I reassured myself that with proper coaching she could overcome any deficit.

Babs, my wife of fifteen years, and I were first smitten by the mountains during our honeymoon in Switzerland. Sixteen days of hiking through some of the most compelling terrain in the world ignited our passion for high, remote places and physical challenges. Since then we've spent virtually every weekend either climbing or training, and every vacation has had climbing as its sole intent. We've traveled from the granite aiguilles of Chamonix France and the Dolomites of northern Italy to the sandstone towers of Red Rocks near Las Vegas and the three-thousand foot limestone walls of El Potrero Chico in northern Mexico. We've endured sprained ankles 1,000 feet off the deck, broken legs, wet bivouacs, and innumerable near-death experiences. Our best vacations are most people's worst nightmare.

Climbing is one of the few sports that both sexes can perform equally well. Grace, balance, and flexibility are the coin of the vertical realm; brute strength can actually be a liability as there’s more mass to haul up the mountain. My wife has a T-shirt with a drawing of a woman crooking her arms in a body-builder's pose with the caption: Climb Like a Girl. As a competitive father with a daughter, you can understand the appeal.

Kelly was born in the spring of 2003. While she was lightweight, portable and non-ambulatory, I took her to some small crags in Connecticut and New Hampshire, always carefully positioning her so she could watch Mommy and Daddy and hopefully imbibe some climbing juju. As she grew, I tried to short-circuit any childhood acrophobia by tossing her high in the air, terrifying bystanders to the point where her daycare director sent me a stern letter indicating that such behavior was not socially acceptable.

Her first words are lost to memory, but her first sentence was “Higher, Dada! Higher!”

Once she began to walk, I encouraged her to scramble up scaffolding and climb on buildings while I chanted our mantra: “Bones heal, pain is temporary, boys dig scars and glory is forever.” Now she requires no encouragement. Her fearless stunts on the playground have caused at least one overly protective mom to drag her little snowflake from play time with Kelly. My wife tolerates these antics but does not necessarily approve. Virtually every weekend a climber is hauled down the talus to a waiting ambulance.

“You need to make friends with other parents, not scare them away!” shouted Babs when I told her the story.

“Honey, Kelly's a climber,” I replied. “She's different than the other kids; we're different than other parents. And why do we want more non-climbing friends anyway?”

“No,” she retorted, “You're different, she's a little girl. Climbing and sex, that's all you ever want to do,” she sneered, turning and walking away.

By the time Kelly was four, it was time to get her on a wall. My first attempt was a disaster. I anchored myself at the top of an easy, low-angled, twenty-foot slab. Babs stayed at the bottom. Kelly tried to climb, crawl and scramble over the smooth rock, but she kept slipping, bashing her knees, elbows and forehead. She started to cry.

“It's ok, honey. You can come down,” Babs cooed.

“NO!” she sobbed, “I want to go to Daddy.”

I should have felt sympathy for my wailing progeny; instead I felt pride. Despite her torment, she wanted nothing more than to please me. I knew I was on perilous ground. Pride is foremost of the Seven Deadlies and I knew if I kept encouraging her, years of therapy or a deadbeat climber boyfriend could easily lie ahead. Selfishly, I flicked the good angel off my shoulder.

“Again, Dada,” she chirped through her tears after she reached me at the anchor. “Let's do it again.” She had the mettle of a true alpinist.

Kelly, now six, is skinny as a feral cat and has the heart of a Viking. She's been gym climbing during the last two winters and spent much of the summer climbing outdoors. She can regularly make it to the top of a seventy-foot pitch. When I return from a day at the crag, she asks questions about the routes I did and their difficulty. Some weekends she'd rather swim, ride her bike or play with her friends, but from time to time, I take her with me even if she doesn't want to go. Once there, if her competitive nature doesn't compel her to try a route and she sits sulking with her Barbies at the base, I cajole and manipulate her much as parents do when trying to get their kids to eat broccoli or lima beans, and up she goes again.

Am I doing this for me or my family? I know I'm more extreme than most dads since few are guiding their offspring toward activities that are so inherently high-risk.

At my primary crag in upstate New York, virtually every weekend a climber is hauled down the talus to a waiting ambulance. Obituaries are common in climbing magazines, and the annual Accidents in North American Mountaineering is required reading for anyone who takes up the sport.

When I talk to other parents about the dramas of first grade or trips to Disney or the shore, the one topic that never manifests itself is how God-awfully boring parenting can be. I'm desperate to recapture my pre-child life and go back to taking off-the-grid vacations. The only way that will happen is if Kelly can join us. I don't even want to have another child, in part because it would delay my return to the mountains.

Yes, I know I'm obsessed, and I see that I'm pushing my obsession — dangerous as it is — onto my daughter. And I've seen all those sports and pageant parents who obsessively drive their kids so they can live though their accomplishments. But I teach Kelly to climb not only to live through her, but with her. I'm thrilled at seeing the glee on her face as she finishes a climb, but I'm also relieved that I'm not stuck on a play date at the zoo.

As she becomes a more skilled and independent alpinist she's going to want to try harder, longer and more dangerous routes. Once she's hooked, the jones to risk life and limb will prove irresistible. This is still a few years away, but as I watch her at the cliffs, I realize if something happens to her, it will be because of my struggle to ease the banality of parenting and to connect with my daughter on the thing I love the most. Does this make me a bad dad? Maybe so.

For now, when we climb, I lead and she follows, but at some point, she'll want to be on the “sharp end” and pick her own way up the mountain face. If she lets me, I'll hold her rope and be there to catch her if she falls. But one day, she's sure to say to me, “Sorry Dad, not this weekend. I want to go climbing with my friends.”

It will probably be the proudest and most frightening day of my life.


joeantol


Mar 20, 2010, 2:02 AM
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Mr "Shroom" (heh),

It's a nit, but I have 7 years experience. Today's is Kelly's birthday.

As for "overwhelming consensus" I believe one of those said Sadaam had WMD, CDOs were investment grade, vaccines cause autism and Avatar is a good movie.

I don't listen to "the consensus" unless, at a minimum, the members therein establish their bona-fides.

You (Shroom) said: "many of us who have multiple parenting experiences..." How many children do you have, what are their ages and -- most importantly -- do they climb?

You can, Shroom, not be entirely truthful wnen answering, but since we're on a global discussion forum with essentially anonymous posters I assume you to be an honest and forthright person.


jt512


Mar 20, 2010, 2:11 AM
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joeantol wrote:
As for "overwhelming consensus" I believe one of those said...vaccines cause autism....

Um, there was never a consensus that vaccines had anything to do with autism, unless you mean a consensus of nutjobs.

Jay


joeantol


Mar 20, 2010, 2:36 AM
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Spend some time w/ parents in New Paltz. There are a lot of these nutjobs


jt512


Mar 20, 2010, 2:43 AM
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joeantol wrote:
Spend some time w/ parents in New Paltz. There are a lot of these nutjobs

Well, I don't think that the definition of "consensus" is "a lot of nutjobs in New Paltz."

Jay


Claypool


Mar 20, 2010, 8:33 AM
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joeantol wrote:
Either you didn't read my piece or didn't read the one you posted.

Or I read both, and you're too blinded by your "climbing family" fantasies to understand how accurate it is.

I get the feeling that you won't get it even if I break it down.


(This post was edited by Claypool on Mar 20, 2010, 9:01 AM)


Potts875


Mar 20, 2010, 8:47 AM
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Great writing! Humorous, silly, obviously a little skewed and written from a Dad's perspective, But I'm sure that was the intention.

Do the morons on his site actually believe that you would put your daughter in danger? Have they ever heard the term tongue in cheek? The way you portray your wife certainly reveals that she would never allow your climbing obsession to go that far with your kid.

Anyway...it was a fun read


johnwesely


Mar 20, 2010, 10:55 AM
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joeantol wrote:
Mr "Shroom" (heh),

It's a nit, but I have 7 years experience. Today's is Kelly's birthday.

To me, that statement proves you don't get it.

Also,

In reply to:
“No,” she retorted, “You're different, she's a little girl. Climbing and sex, that's all you ever want to do,” she sneered, turning and walking away.

I bet you didn't get any after that.


Partner j_ung


Mar 20, 2010, 2:42 PM
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First I thought, whoa, this guy might be pushing the boundaries of sound parenting. Then I thought, damn, there sure are a lot of people who presume to tell somebody else how he should raise his child. Then I thought, well, he did post it on rockclimbing.com.


joeantol


Mar 20, 2010, 3:39 PM
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Yes I did and I knew what I was doing. The piece was about climbing and parenting and this site (and gunks.com) seemed to be the best venues for getting the word out.

I've received many private messages and f/b comments in support of the essay. These are people who know me, whereas the clowns on this site do not.

This reminds me of a Wall Street adage: "Those who say, don't know; those who know, don't say"


dynosore


Mar 20, 2010, 4:03 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
joeantol wrote:
Mr "Shroom" (heh),

It's a nit, but I have 7 years experience. Today's is Kelly's birthday.

To me, that statement proves you don't get it.

Also,

In reply to:
“No,” she retorted, “You're different, she's a little girl. Climbing and sex, that's all you ever want to do,” she sneered, turning and walking away.

I bet you didn't get any after that.

Actually let me translate what she was really saying: "I'm tired of being married to a little boy. Grow up and be a father and husband." Joe, your kid and wife are screaming out to you, will you start to listen? I don't care if you like me or not, ask your wife if I'm not dead on? Ask your daughter if she REALLY wants to climb? Don't take her until she asks to go. Or wouldn't that fit with YOUR agenda? You're a parent now, can your boyish dreams until they're off in college. I just got back from a SOLO trip out west for a week, my wife wanted to stay home with the kids. I don't force them to do things they don't want and they respect my need for a bit of freedom. Works a lot better than forcing them into a mold they don't want to be in. If you didn't want to sacrifice things you shouldn't have gotten married and had kids.

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