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brianthew
Dec 12, 2002, 6:35 PM
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The main reason bolting cracks is frowned upon is becuase it bolting defaces the rock. Now, I'm no trad climber; on rock I do mostly sport, but the concern is for the perservation of rock. It may feel "unfair" that trad climbers get to climb that crack, however, what's more important...preservation of the enviornment or another climb on your tick list?
If you really, really want to climb it, then ask a trad person really nicely...
Not that this answer will really satisfy you, but the avoidance of excessive bolting is part of the ethic in pretty much every climbing area (at least in the USA).
I get the feeling this will turn into a heated debate soon...oh well.
[ This Message was edited by: brianthew on 2002-12-12 10:36 ]
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lox
Dec 12, 2002, 6:36 PM
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It probably has a lot to do with whiney threads like this one.
WHY DON'T YOU GUYS LIKE ME !?!? I'M COOL !!?!!11 I SWEAR !!!!1111111
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hallm
Dec 12, 2002, 6:37 PM
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If money is the issue, buy cams and nuts instead of a bolt kit.
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pbjosh
Dec 12, 2002, 6:40 PM
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EDIT
Unfortunately the wonderous post that inspired this has been removed so it's no longer relevant. The original poster (can't even remember who) had proclaimed that trad climbers were elitists and that cracks should be bolted so that people who couldn't afford or couldn't figure out cams could climb them.
Thus my response below.
josh
/EDIT
New #1 stupidest all time thread.
New top 5 entry for stupidest user.
If you can't afford cams stop spending all your money on prAna beenies and girlie mags or (oh my god) suffice yourself with toproping that which you cannot lead (what a f*cking concept, eh?).
josh
[ This Message was edited by: pbjosh on 2003-01-03 09:32 ]
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climblouisiana
Dec 12, 2002, 6:45 PM
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I couldn't climb the 5.1- approach pitch to my favorite climbing area so I bolted a ladder to it.
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redpoint73
Dec 12, 2002, 6:47 PM
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Every climbing area has a different philosophy regarding bolts. So its best to respect local traditions and regulations. Some areas only place bolts where absolutely neccessary (no pro at a crux), and hav many "mixed" routes. Other areas are developed as sport crags, where even splitter cracks are bolted.
Bolted lines that could otherwise be climbed as (scary or hard to protect) trad lines can be fun. But saying that lines should be bolted just because you can't afford the gear is not a good reason (I know thats not your reasoning, but you did mention it). You can always borrow gear, or top rope it. Or climb something else.
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ride
Dec 12, 2002, 6:48 PM
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use your $.02 to start saving for a rack, two stoppers costs about as much as one quickdraw, check it out.
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petsfed
Dec 12, 2002, 6:50 PM
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I'd never heard of sport climbers disliking trad climbers because of that. I have heard of trad climbers slagging on sport climbers for "purity" reasons. It just strikes me as odd when I sink a bomber hand jam, reach up, and clip a bolt. Maybe that's just me.
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timpanogos
Dec 12, 2002, 6:50 PM
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Josh,
Too funny
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ljthawk
Dec 12, 2002, 6:53 PM
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That is quoted from me. Yes I climb sport, as well as trad, bouldering, and starting to learn about aid.
First off you are correct. If you can't afford the gear, or more realistically, can't partner up with someone and learn how to use the gear by climbing with them (since they already have the gear), then that climb is not for you.
For example, I can't afford a bivy ledge (sp?), so should we pre place them up on multi day aid routes. Another aider may not like hooking 20 moves and not having any set pro, does that mean the aid climb should be ladder bolted.
I can't afford many things in life. I make choices as to what my priorities are. I don't think my lack of willingness to learn or lack of financial funds is an excuse to change the personality of the climb. Respect the rock. There are a plethora of trad climbs in my area I wouldn't fee comfortable leading on gear. Does this mean I think they should be bolted. No way. I either have to get someone else to lead them, lead an easier climb to access the top and then set up a TR, get stronger so I can do them, or leave them alone. Retro bolting is not an option.
This has been debated many times over. Yes I agree this is definitely one of the dumbest style threads. I don't know which is worse, the thread or the fact I took the time to respond to a climber who evidently doesn't understand the background history / ethics in climbing. Unfortunately the recent popularity of indoor gyms and easy accessible sport crags has many new climbers thinking climbing is a right, not a privilege. Who do you think maintains these sport areas, replacing anchors and manky hardware? It's not a right, its an expensive privilege.The sad thing is that those of us who are trying to work on anchor maintenance for these climbers probably aren't even appreciated since they feel the bolts were put there for their convenience. If you want respect, give it and get in touch with the ethics / climbing community that nurtured this sport since before it became trendy.
[off]
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elvislegs
Dec 12, 2002, 6:58 PM
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Digscot (BTW what is it caught in?), Sorry man you asked a certain sort of question and you got a certain sort of answer. You've been climbing for all of what? Three months. So chalk it up to live and learn.
But nice touch calling US "faggots" and then talking about how YOU want to shove something up our ass. Your winning friends here quickly.
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ride
Dec 12, 2002, 7:00 PM
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well said ljthawk.
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ljthawk
Dec 12, 2002, 7:07 PM
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dig_scott
Why did you delete your original message?
L.J.
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holmeslovesguinness
Dec 12, 2002, 7:09 PM
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not all people have trad gear so does this mean they shouldn't be allowed to place a bolt there because i can put my #2.5 camalot two inches to the right?
Ummm... so your hypothetical protagantist here can afford the gear to bolt a route (including some expensive drill) but can't afford a few cams or stoppers? Riiiight. And yes, if a section of a route doesn't need bolts, don't bolt it.
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uncle_big_green
Dec 12, 2002, 7:14 PM
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DigScotty, where's the love, man?
There are reasons why bolts shouldn't get placed next to bomber gear placements. One is that they (bolts) are not needed for a relatively safe ascent if you can instead sink a fat piece of gear. Another is that it is in better style to minimize the impact on the rock. Didn't people's parents ever tell them that they should try to leave something in the condition in which they found it?
[ This Message was edited by: uncle_big_green on 2002-12-12 11:16 ]
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wanlessrm
Dec 12, 2002, 7:26 PM
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Money is a cheap copout for some people. Instead of getting sodas at the kwick mart use the mone for a gear. Its all about trade offs and living the life you want to live.
Has anyone actually fu-k a fag! If you have will you keep it to yourself so I don't have to hear about it!
Thanks
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calamity_chk
Dec 12, 2002, 7:27 PM
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apollodorus ... LOL !!
also, presuming that the bolt drilling protag really didnt have money for cams .. I say so what. I'm learning trad, and the only piece of gear that I have is a bootied tri-cam that a friend let me have.
The climbing community, dirtbags and trad snobs in particular, are incredibly nice and generous people; the gear is there, if the ethics are.
Now as for why trad people pick on sporties, my guess is threads like this. They come off as being whiny. Dont get me wrong, I whine about stuff too .. and I get made fun of, big deal.
Trad is all about ethics, balls, and machismo. If you cant deal, then dont play. And if you whine, expect to be made fun of.
[/end rambling mess .. back to work]
[ This Message was edited by: clymbr_chk on 2002-12-12 11:29 ]
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rrrADAM
Dec 12, 2002, 7:28 PM
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Nobody should be getting a hard time, as it's all climbing brutha. As long as you are pulling down on something, you are climbing.
Bagging on another style serves no purpose, but in fact creates a rift in the climbing community, when what we need is unity.
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calamity_chk
Dec 12, 2002, 7:30 PM
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adam, quit being so mean, ma' brotha
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jiadar
Dec 12, 2002, 7:35 PM
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Bolting a trad-protectable line takes away a lot of the adventure in climbing it. The challenge of route-finding, anchor setup, and placing your own gear is for me just as good as the actual climbing. If all I'm doing is following a bolt ladder it takes away that sense of adventure. While I may be able to climb harder with pre-placed gear, that isn't what its all about for me.
Not to mention the environmental damage, and eyesore!
Now thats cool to place them on a run-out face or something that be unclimbable with natural pro, but bolting up good cracks is just rediculous.
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mnutz
Dec 12, 2002, 7:42 PM
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Bolting also brings more people to the crags. More people bring more litter, create more trails, add to erosion, trampled vegatation. Land managers get upset, areas get closed.
Keep it clean, keep it open. Keep it bolt-free.
In response to the original question, trad climbers diss on all whiners, not just sport climbers, LOL!
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timpanogos
Dec 12, 2002, 7:47 PM
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GREAT call apollodorus - hit the nail right on!
too funny
RRRAdam - yea we should get along, but we should also educate and promote good ethics - you copped out here.
[ This Message was edited by: timpanogos on 2002-12-12 11:49 ]
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mustclimb69
Dec 12, 2002, 7:53 PM
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Where did the origional message go???
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space_monkey
Dec 12, 2002, 8:06 PM
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very nicely put mnutz!!
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