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johnwesely
Apr 13, 2010, 1:46 PM
Post #26 of 35
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davidnn5 wrote: Johnwesely: Curt's example is a good one. A single area with grades through the range (though presumably not up to V15? I haven't been to or researched Hueco) all set within a year would provide comparability so that (years later) one could climb them and check out whether there had been grade creep. That's why I asked - and thanks Curt for responding. Next question is whether those climbs represent each and every type of climbing movement one might use... I can climb a 5.8 at Tallulah and then a 5.8 at Sandrock and know for certain that grade creep has occurred. In fact, I am not sure that you will meet a single person that would claim that it hasn't.
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k.l.k
Apr 13, 2010, 5:11 PM
Post #27 of 35
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curt wrote: Well, it doesn't really matter if there is variation from area to area. The "V" grades at Hueco Tanks are correct, by definition. A point that will matter to essentially no one as the changes in v-grades get applied at every single other climbing area. For a start, my understanding is that even at Hueco, the upper v-grades got sliced a lot thinner than Verm intended as folks like Fred Nicole assimilated Vs to the Bleau system. For another, because grades are consensus-- rather than objective, like gymnastics grades --as skill sets change, so will consensus. The groms are completely re-arranging the grading for places like Black Mountain. Folks are just a lot better than they used to be at overhanging thin face and dynos. But they're no better-- in many cases, worse-- at mantles, slabs, and cracks. Boneheads and Campfire Dyno now both get V5. We would've called them 4 and maybe 7.
(This post was edited by k.l.k on Apr 13, 2010, 5:32 PM)
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robinsmv
Apr 13, 2010, 6:02 PM
Post #28 of 35
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Obviously since this would be located in a gym we would need a new scale to judge by. I vote for the G scale, ranging from a really easy (G Golly) to a route so hard that there is much debate as to whether or not it actually exists, or just exactly how to reach the end of it (G Spot). I do agree that grades are based on a consensus. Therefore anyone claiming to have conquered a G Spot route will have to have a general consensus from past climbing partners that the climber in question had enough skill to work such a challenging route from the obvious start to the elusive finish.
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dingus
Apr 13, 2010, 7:26 PM
Post #29 of 35
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sidepull... how about using some scientific method too? So you assemble your dream team and convene in a gym capable and willing to host your college. Your team creates the routes, haggles over the ratings, comes to a consensus. Now..... 'document.' In other words, make the experiment repeatable. Document the problems in CAD, 3-D. That way when Josephine McWannabe in Boomtown Australia thinks she's made the grade she can assemble the same problem in her local gym, and do the test herself. You could then market your V0-V10 Bouldometer as a KIT. DMT
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kylekienitz
Apr 13, 2010, 9:07 PM
Post #30 of 35
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objectivity sucks.
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sidepull
Apr 14, 2010, 1:23 AM
Post #31 of 35
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dingus wrote: sidepull... how about using some scientific method too? So you assemble your dream team and convene in a gym capable and willing to host your college. Your team creates the routes, haggles over the ratings, comes to a consensus. Now..... 'document.' In other words, make the experiment repeatable. Document the problems in CAD, 3-D. That way when Josephine McWannabe in Boomtown Australia thinks she's made the grade she can assemble the same problem in her local gym, and do the test herself. You could then market your V0-V10 Bouldometer as a KIT. DMT I guess in a way that's what Ben Moon has already done, eg: http://usa.moonclimbing.com/...problems_setup04.pdf I think the difference is that the School Room is a local consensus, just like Hueco or J-Tree or any other of a number of areas that were developed and rated by a relatively small group of climbers. So that consensus is insular or self-referential. The beauty of a "ratings museum" is that you could have a variety of climbers from all of the world meet and come up with a global consensus. Really the whole idea - and as the Ben Moon mention makes obvious, the idea isn't new nor is it mine - but the whole idea comes from the way Paul Robinson described his new problem:
from: http://p-d-robinson.blogspot.com/2010/03/thoughts-on-v16.html wrote: After working "lucid dreaming" and eventually sending the line, it was very hard for me to come up with an idea of its difficulty. The climb is very different from "the game" and requires much different strengths to complete. I thought about terremer and jade. Both of which have a single move that mark the crux. "lucid" has a 2 move crux sequence which i believe to be even more difficult than if you were to combine the jade crux move with the terremer crux move. This 2 move sequence truly was an epic for me. I fell on each of the move hundreds of times and the ability to link the two moves came after 12 days of patiently waiting for everything to be perfect. I know that these two moves joined together are the two hardest single moves in a row that i have ever done. I know that it is a great deal harder that jade and terremer. Basically his argument is that both Jade and Terremer have one move that makes them V15 and that Lucid has a two move sequence that makes it V16. I just thought, well, if you can break it down that way, then you should be able to replicate similarly difficult moves in a gym and that way people could actually try them and see if, "yeah, that feels like V15 or V16 compared to the V13 over there." I don't know, in my mind, his description just seemed like it could be replicated and that by replicating it, it could provide a better sense of the difficulty. Necessary? No. Interesting? If you say, "no" then ... well, you either have no creativity, your fingers are weak so you don't like others climbing hard stuff, or you think this is all about grades and you're totally missing the community building and challenging aspects of this whole thing.
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macblaze
Apr 14, 2010, 1:28 AM
Post #32 of 35
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dingus wrote: You could then market your V0-V10 Bouldometer as a KIT. DMT Hey, I already copyrighted that idea:
macblaze wrote: You could sell official V11 kits so people could make their own and... You after my cut or what? If there is any economic gain to made from this idea, I want my share. Tell you what, you guys divy up the American rights and I'll take the rest of the world...
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davidnn5
Apr 14, 2010, 2:12 AM
Post #33 of 35
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macblaze wrote: dingus wrote: You could then market your V0-V10 Bouldometer as a KIT. DMT Hey, I already copyrighted that idea: macblaze wrote: You could sell official V11 kits so people could make their own and... You after my cut or what? If there is any economic gain to made from this idea, I want my share. Tell you what, you guys divy up the American rights and I'll take the rest of the world... Really though, how cool would it be if a beginning-intermediate boulderer, just able to manage Vwhatever, could get their hands on a kit giving exact dimensions (height, overhang etc) and holds to create some famous Vhigh? I'd bet some would project it for years and eventually send it where otherwise it may take far longer and/or they wouldn't have the opportunity to get to there to "that boulder". *misty eyes* Oh, and stfu noob, yer gonna die, and pancakes.
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sidepull
Apr 14, 2010, 2:28 AM
Post #34 of 35
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davidnn5 wrote: macblaze wrote: dingus wrote: You could then market your V0-V10 Bouldometer as a KIT. DMT Hey, I already copyrighted that idea: macblaze wrote: You could sell official V11 kits so people could make their own and... You after my cut or what? If there is any economic gain to made from this idea, I want my share. Tell you what, you guys divy up the American rights and I'll take the rest of the world... Really though, how cool would it be if a beginning-intermediate boulderer, just able to manage Vwhatever, could get their hands on a kit giving exact dimensions (height, overhang etc) and holds to create some famous Vhigh? I'd bet some would project it for years and eventually send it where otherwise it may take far longer and/or they wouldn't have the opportunity to get to there to "that boulder". *misty eyes* Oh, and stfu noob, yer gonna die, and pancakes. Franklin Holds already did that with some classic problems. For example, here's the set they made for Midnight Lightning:
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davidnn5
Apr 14, 2010, 4:25 AM
Post #35 of 35
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Well then, get started on your museum already!
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