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shawkshaw
Dec 13, 2002, 1:59 AM
Post #26 of 41
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just a couple of things. Im all for bolting on lead but i don't think that it replaces rap bolting in all cases. some climbs are just too hard to bolt on lead with a drill and bolts to carry. A lot of classic routes have been bolted on rap which would have been extremelly hard to bolt on lead. Bolting on lead is also not possible when placing Glueins as the glue takes 24 hrs to cure in some cases. this means that soft rock is sometimes out for lead bolting.
oh yeah and as for the comment every climb that can be top roped should not be bolted would mean that every single pitch sport route should have its bolts removed because its far easier to place two top roping anchors than ten lead bolts. Top roping is a valid way to climb but i don't think that every route should be top roped over placing bolts. no way.
of course trad placements should always be chosen over bolts(?)
steve
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ricardol
Dec 13, 2002, 2:27 AM
Post #27 of 41
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what can and should be bolted is clearly defined by the local customs of the crag.. for example Owens River Gorge is a sport destination where alot of routes have been bolted .. even right next to cracks ..
-- ricardo
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bighigaz
Dec 13, 2002, 2:58 AM
Post #28 of 41
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How in the world do some of you people become "authorities" on bolting? My main confusion, I guess, is why rap bolting is so wrong?! I'd like to see you lead bolt a perfectly vertical 5.12. Rap bolting is the most effective way to put bolts in the right places! If Rap bolting were NEVER practiced, on the premise that if it can be TR'd then it shouldn't be bolted, then half the sport routes in the world would be gone!!! gimme a break. This is climbing. If it's a sport climbing area, and can't be protected by natural pro, then bolt it however you feel comfortable bolting. This will avoid a bunch of unecessary holes when you decide later that you placed a bolt in an unsafe place, or an unecessary place. (A perfect example is "Hitchcock Pinnacle" at Windy Point on Mount Lemmon. Once had 2, then had 4, now has ONE bolt and half-a-dozen ugly holes!) Rap bolting is completely ethical in my opinion, as it makes sure the climb is put up correctly the first time. I'm sure there are at least a few climbers would agree with me on that...
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uncle_big_green
Dec 13, 2002, 3:11 AM
Post #29 of 41
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Registered: May 15, 2002
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Wow Kalcario, you almost made a good point until you started your political diatribe. I'll elaborate on the bolting issue first. A line bolted on rappel can be indistinguishible from a line bolted on lead as far as someone repeating the line is concerned. One thing to mention though, is that routes bolted on lead tend to be more conservatively bolted as they are usually hand drilled and bolter doesn't have the luxury of resting wherever they want (as does a rap bolter).
How you relate ethics and tradition in the US to forcing me to pay for someone else's health care or telling me that you should decide what type of items I may own is a stretch and is not pertinent to this discussion. I couldn't give a damn about what a 2nd World Continent (that would be Europe), that for the most part recognizes a person's right to their own life even less than this country, thinks about anything. If you're that distraught, you can move to Europe and/or we can take this to the Community forumn.
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roughster
Dec 13, 2002, 3:20 AM
Post #30 of 41
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Registered: Apr 3, 2002
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UBG:
I've ground up bolted stuff with a power drill. Does that not make it still "bold"?
I wouldn't slam KC when your ethics are more screwed up than anyone else on this site. Look at your own home page for a good example of idiocy.
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uncle_big_green
Dec 13, 2002, 3:39 AM
Post #31 of 41
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Roughster, why don't you cite some specifics when you make accusations? I know what my ethics are: bolts don't belong next to bomber gear placements for lead protection. Its stated on that web page. Explain how that is screwed-up if you can.
[ This Message was edited by: uncle_big_green on 2002-12-12 19:41 ]
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radistrad
Dec 13, 2002, 5:42 PM
Post #32 of 41
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Registered: Feb 25, 2002
Posts: 800
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Rap bolting? What is that? Did they rap bolt the Nose? Can I bolts cracks and not get my ass kicked? Can I spit off of the top of a popular crag on Saturdays?
Ethics, my friend. If you dont likethe way things are done dont climb.
[ This Message was edited by: radistrad on 2002-12-13 09:45 ]
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antimatter
Dec 13, 2002, 6:28 PM
Post #33 of 41
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I haven't put up a single route (yet).
But, I am noticing which routes are done on lead and which are done on rap. Most lead bolted routes I have climbed (@JT/Tahquitz) are bolted at the good rests or stances. Often times, those stances are many feet above the crux where drilling on lead would be MUCH harder if possible at all. These are typically trad lines. Now, I can totally get into this type of bolting. When I do the climb, it's similar to the way the FA did the climb. Sometimes, I am making the crux move WAY above a bolt. Or, the climbing is runout because drilling on lead is HARD. Scary, bold, perhaps the way the FA wanted the route? Ok with me, I know it's coming.
On the other hand, places like Williamson/NJC or other sport crags are rap bolted. The FA climbs the route, finds the best CLIPPING stances as close to the crux as possible and bolts accordingly. Done right, these routes are SAFER. Plus, they are a little more predictable because you often get a decent stance to clip from. I dig these routes too!
Arguing rightness/wrongness on this one is laughable, it's a personal taste issue. Repect the tradition of your local crag? Sure, why not, it avoids bolt-wars.
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stevo
Dec 13, 2002, 9:53 PM
Post #34 of 41
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This is a great thread question and I am hoping to add a question to it regarding ground up ascents.
I have done ground up FA's, limited, they have been without bolts and on obviois lines, ice, mixed and crack lines.
In regards to longer multi pitch venues with a mix of bolting on lead and crack lines is where my question is focusing.
So you have a large wall you want to climb, do you study the wall with binoculars and try to exactly plan your line, or do you choose features you want to try and follow and link them up as you go?
When the crack your following ends (I am talking about limestone) should you traverse to another feature you saw from the ground, head into the unknown with drill in hand up the easiest line?
How do you choose the line you are going to attempt?
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beyond_gravity
Dec 13, 2002, 10:51 PM
Post #35 of 41
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Registered: Jan 2, 2002
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Idiots. Why are you flaming like this?
flaming should only be done on lead.
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flynnypek
Dec 17, 2002, 2:52 PM
Post #36 of 41
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Does the type of rock affect the way of bolting as well?
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z0mb1e
Dec 17, 2002, 3:37 PM
Post #37 of 41
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Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 52
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I think the type of rock would because some types would be harder to drill into which would make you want to be able to use both hands and in order to do that you would want to be on rapel.
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redpoint
Dec 17, 2002, 4:36 PM
Post #38 of 41
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Registered: Nov 7, 2002
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Just find a good line and put it up. Ethics of bolting may apply in certain areas but are just an ego thing. There is nothing wrong with rap drilling if its called for. Putting up routes on lead is great and exciting but not always possible.
Just use your common sence if you think the line will cause some controversy then don't do it, unless you want to start a war.
Otherwise go for it. We need more people pioneering new stuff.
My suggestion is to find a crag that you can work on and practice putting up lines there, that way you can put routes up anyway you want.
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wallace
Dec 19, 2002, 11:30 AM
Post #39 of 41
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Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 23
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Stevo, if you are climbing the aformentioned route for the first time, why are you climbing with drill in hand? If you need to aid, the drill is hardly your first tool. If you want to set a route as FA, climb it, decide whether bolting is appropriate, climb it a couple more times to decide where the bolts will go and then bolt it.
[ This Message was edited by: wallace on 2002-12-19 03:32 ]
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flynnypek
Dec 19, 2002, 3:25 PM
Post #40 of 41
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Registered: Oct 28, 2002
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Is there a special kind of drill you need? or just a regular one with a different -I don't know the word in English -
"broca" (it is the steel piece that you can change on the drill to make different sizes of holes and on different materials)
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boltdude
Dec 25, 2002, 6:28 AM
Post #41 of 41
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Registered: Sep 30, 2002
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Bolting ethics are always controversial. Regardless of what you want to do, there is one thing you NEED to do:
Find local long-time first ascent folks, and apprentice with them one way or another. New route development is a hard-earned set of skills and knowledge, and you want to learn from someone who knows their $#!&.
NEVER go out and try to put up routes without first learning from people who know.
Other climbers' lives will depend on it, especially if you choose to use bolts.
And, as a footnote from someone who's replaced a lot of old bolts - PLEASE don't bolt poorly - use stainless steel bolts as well as hangers, and do a good job the first time. Even in the desert, non-stainless bolts rust.
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