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untilwhen


Apr 26, 2010, 4:26 PM
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have several questions hope get answer
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hi new here.am not from usa so am sorry if it will be any
writing mistake.and please when do answer writ it in easy
simple englishPirate
thanks !
oh and am doing sport climbing.

1)when am last rappelling in climbing ,there is a Single Point of Failure.because we dont want any gear left.
how can i avoid that ? or the only choice is to rappel on single ring ?

2) is knot really weaken the rope that much ?
i mean:if the rope can old up to like 7 kn and my weigh is 100 kilogram and the fall makes it evan bigger,
than the rope is very dangerous from all climbing gear.isnt it ?
+what knot is the less weakane the rope-the 8 figure
or bowling ?

3)is it ok to take one edge of the rope and ; to take it across the tree and rappel ? it dont have any knot so the rope dosent gat weaker dosent it ?

thanks alot all !!
In reply to:
edit one last question


if am building a top rop
and am tying a rope to tree and have a rope long enough (or can make it longer bay clipping carabiner to the rope and on the other edge sling)so the rope that am climbing with wont pass on the rock;but air only.i stiil have the rope that connect to the rope that am climbing wite
that is leaning on the rock.it maybe not moving but still there is the pressure of the climber on him
(it can move a bit to the sides)
see picture
http://bong.co.il/images/59454611097.jpg
the question is:if in that situation is ok. and if i can put something under the rope to make less pressure
on the rope so it wont cut or something
hope you understand


(This post was edited by untilwhen on Apr 26, 2010, 5:10 PM)


qtm


Apr 26, 2010, 5:20 PM
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untilwhen wrote:
hi new here.am not from usa so am sory if it will be any
writing mistake.and please when do answer writ it in easy
simple englisePirate
thanks !
oh and am doing sport climbing.

1)when am last rappelling in climbing ,there is a Single Point of Failure.beacuse we dont want any gear left.
how can i avoid that ? or the only choise is to rappel on single ring ?

I wouldn't rap off a single ring unless absolutely necessary. I'll leave as much gear as I feel necessary to be safe. Most places have two bolts with chains or open shuts, or at least some webbing with some rings or quicklinks. Again, if the webbing or rap rings look sketchy, I'll supplement or replace them as necessary. Or just not climb it. Or if possible top out and walk off.


untilwhen wrote:
2) is knot realy weaken the rope that much ?
i mean:if the rope can old up to like 7 kn and my weigh is 100 kilogram and the fall makes it evan bigger
than the rope is very dangerous from all climbing gear.
+what knot is the less weakane the rope-the 8 figure
or bowling ?

Yes, knots weaken rope by as much as 40%. More info here
http://www.caves.org/.../nh/50/knotrope.html
The bowline is weaker than the figure 8.

I hope you are not climbing on a rope that's only rated 7KN, climbing ropes are rated *much* higher. 6mm cord is rated around 7KN.


untilwhen wrote:
3)is it ok to take one edge of the rope and ; to take it across the tree and rappel ? it dont have any knot so the rope dosent gat weaker dosent it ?

Do you mean run the rope behind a tree, rap, then pull the rope? No, that is not acceptable. When you pull the rope, you rip the bark off the tree, which damages the tree. You could also damage the rope, but the problem is when a lot of people do it, it will kill the tree.


(This post was edited by qtm on Apr 26, 2010, 5:21 PM)


Colinhoglund


Apr 26, 2010, 5:43 PM
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First of all, take a class, hands on learning works best by far. Wink

Second read John Long's Anchor book. Wink

Third I will do my best to give you some food for thought, I like principles not rules so heres some to consider in answering your questions.

1) Use both rings when rappelling. Always strive to have at least two pieces in your anchor system for all aspects of climbing. (accept perhaps clipping your first pro on lead)

2) Yes 20-40% depending on knot who you ask. Both knots work.
The rope is far stronger than 7kn if using a UIAA single rope.
Use the thickest cordalette available for ancoring say 7-8mm.

3) Possible yes, Good idea no. First it kills the tree when you pull the rope after rapping by cutting bark, second it will wear your rope faster, use a sling and a rap ring is best.

4) Slightly confusing question/picture not sure you grasp the concept.
Preventing rope wear on sharp edges is always a good idea. If safely possible, extend your anchor past the edge so the rope doesn't run over it.

I hope this helps. Remember this is no substitute for hands on learning with someone who is experienced. Most accidents happen to novice climbers who don't know their stuff.Pirate


untilwhen


Apr 26, 2010, 6:47 PM
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thanks for the answears !

qtm

1)it is that critical ? i sew pepople top roping on one ring.
2)you sure ? all ropes here
http://kksh.co.il/category.asp?cID=172
like the 9.6 mm is can take 820 kg.
if am tieing figure 8 and clip it to carabiner like so

http://thumb10.shutterstock.com.edgesuite.net/display_pic_with_logo/154906/154906,1224119762,9/stock-photo-a-locking-carabiner-and-a-figure-eight-follow-through-knot-is-isolated-against-a-white-back-ground-18962776.jpg

and rope can old like 800 kg.
so you say 40% less then its can old now somting like 350, lees the weight lets say like 100
then its can old like 250 KG.isint that very limited ?or am i missing somting.

3)what is the different betwing what am meaning and
what you mean
like this
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-97-61/fig5-1.gif
both ruining the tree
In reply to:
Attachments: stock-photo-a-locking-carabiner-and-a-figure-eight-follow-through-knot-is-isolated-against-a-white-back-ground-18962776.jpg (41.6 KB)


untilwhen


Apr 26, 2010, 6:53 PM
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Colinhoglund
4)lets say if the rop is not on a sharp rock but it is lieing
on the rop.(i cant put the rope on air)is that ok ?
and the books you mean this one
http://www.amazon.com/Climbing-Anchors-2nd-How-Climb/dp/0762723262

this one
http://www.amazon.com/Climbing-Anchors-2nd-How-Climb/dp/0762723262

or is that beter
http://www.amazon.com/Climbing-Crag-S-Peter-Lewis/dp/0898866820


Colinhoglund


Apr 26, 2010, 7:14 PM
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http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb/qclab/qc-lab-retiring-old-ropes

Yes it is! The book I mentioned is the first link. It shows the math behind backups, 2 points is exponentially safer than one point. Sometimes 2 chains are connected to one beefy ring. There are weird setups out there, make sure there are 2 bolts involved.

Skinny new rope broke at Approximately 13.5kn. when knotted = you break your back before it breaks. And thats a 9.4, at your level (and my'ne) a 10+ should be what your using and they are far stronger Wink.

Your TR anchor should look similar to this

http://www.squamishrockguides.com/pictures/toprope.jpg

or this

http://www.richsobel.com/images/EssentialClimbing2005/2TreeAnchor.jpg

Keep learning.


bhp


Apr 26, 2010, 7:16 PM
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The 8 kN "impact force" is not the force that must be exerted on the rope to break it; instead it is a measure of how much force the rope exerts on a falling climber in a UIAA "standard" fall, which is just about the most serious fall someone can take.

Dynamic ropes aren't rated in the same way as accessory cord, slings, biners, etc. because it is simply not possible to exert that much force on a rope in a climbing scenario. The ultimate failure strength of dynamic ropes is, I would guess, somewhere in the 30 kN+ range.


untilwhen


Apr 27, 2010, 2:40 AM
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thanks all i get the idia here.so my last quastion is:
can i buy 2 static ropes eash rope somting like 4 meter
and tie 1 to 1 tree and second rope to second tree (or bolders )and build Anchors system from them ?
( i prefer a sling here to build, which is stronger but not long enough to get to the tree or bolder)

Colinhoglund
here is my quastion in the picture
http://up203.siz.co.il/up2/gmjtjiymz1tn.jpg
if the pressure (where the black arrow ) is " allowed"


shu2kill


Apr 27, 2010, 6:43 AM
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hablas espanol???


shu2kill


Apr 27, 2010, 6:50 AM
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untilwhen wrote:
1)it is that critical ? i sew pepople top roping on one ring.

that is just dumb. a person (not a climber) died last year at our favorite climbing zone because his "climber" friends were top roping on 1 bolt, and, unfortunately, the bolt failed when he was at the top....

plus top roping on fixed gear (such as rings set at the anchors) is also bad. you will wear them and eventually they will be useless. always top rope on your own gear....


qtm


Apr 27, 2010, 7:23 AM
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untilwhen wrote:
thanks all i get the idia here.so my last quastion is:
can i buy 2 static ropes eash rope somting like 4 meter
and tie 1 to 1 tree and second rope to second tree (or bolders )and build Anchors system from them ?
( i prefer a sling here to build, which is stronger but not long enough to get to the tree or bolder)

Colinhoglund
here is my quastion in the picture
http://up203.siz.co.il/up2/gmjtjiymz1tn.jpg
if the pressure (where the black arrow ) is " allowed"

Sure. But do you really want two sections of 4m or would a single 8m length be more useful?

I have a 12m 5/8" static rope that I use for toprope anchors. There are some places I go where the only trees are set 10m back from the edge so the static rope helps as I can run it as a single strand to the edge. I could do it with two 6m lengths, but then I have to link the two ropes together with a biner, and lose a couple feet due to the extra knots.

5/8" static rope is much stronger than 1" webbing.

I prefer static rope over webbing because webbing stretches a lot. For anything over 3m, I use the static rope.


osu_cowboy


Apr 27, 2010, 7:40 AM
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Cool Article!


kennoyce


Apr 27, 2010, 8:02 AM
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bhp wrote:
The 8 kN "impact force" is not the force that must be exerted on the rope to break it; instead it is a measure of how much force the rope exerts on a falling climber in a UIAA "standard" fall, which is just about the most serious fall someone can take.

This is correct. The impact force listed on the rope is not it's breaking strength, thanks for clearing that up for the OP.

bhp wrote:
Dynamic ropes aren't rated in the same way as accessory cord, slings, biners, etc. because it is simply not possible to exert that much force on a rope in a climbing scenario. The ultimate failure strength of dynamic ropes is, I would guess, somewhere in the 30 kN+ range.

This is not correct. A dynamic climbing rope certainly won't hold any where near 30 kN. Most will break below 15 kN because they aren't designed to break like a normal cord or webbing. When a climbing rope is pulled to failure, the force increases (non linearly) until it reaches some maximum force of maybe 13-14 kN. The force then stays relatively constant as the rope continues to stretch further and further until it finally breaks. The point of a climbing rope is not to hold a very high load, but to dissipate energy through stretching. This is the reason that dynamic ropes are not rated according to their ultimate strength, but according to the maximum impact force in a standardized test. Hope this helps clear up some of the confusion regarding the "strength" of a climbing rope.


bhp


Apr 27, 2010, 8:54 AM
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Thanks for the correction. I guess I was thinking about the failure strength of static lines (which can do 30 kN+) and making the (poor) assumption that a similar amount of material would mean a similar strength.


untilwhen


Apr 28, 2010, 1:27 PM
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hi all so i did some rappelling today and i like to know if the system was good.
so what i've done is that:
took 1 end of the rope,tied a figure 8 to the rock.
and took the other end of the rope and tied a bowline around bolder.
took all the remaining rope and throw it from the cliff.
and start rappelling.
so was it good ?
i could do it without the bowline knot nor the figure 8 (only 1 knot wiil do the job)and rappel on single rope. does it really mater ?
(i know rappelling is more commen wite 2 ropes but i gat only 1 Cool)
http://www.ufu.co.il/files/cz25o1egq5nxsjzww8p1.jpg


(This post was edited by untilwhen on Apr 28, 2010, 1:32 PM)


Colinhoglund


Apr 28, 2010, 5:09 PM
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Thanks for clarifying my point kennoyce. Thats why I referenced the Black Diamond study.

Yes the picture of the setup with the arrows is fine as long as the rock is not SHARP! If it is pad the cord.
http://up203.siz.co.il/up2/gmjtjiymz1tn.jpg

FYI you shouldn't be too worried about the strength of your cordage/webbing beyond 12-15kn as most if not all loads on a proper system are below 12kn, as that is the max threshold for human survival. Therefore as a proper system distributes the load over 2+ points max load on your anchor should be no more that 6kn. (ie. picking 22kn sling over 12kn cord is not necessarily a good thing, climbing is about using the best tool for the job) Half or my gear is rated to 8kn (ie nuts and cams) and I'm still alive.Wink Again read John Long, I'd have to write you pages of reply, or just read that book.

How you rappel works, but is upside down. (again a question of ok vs best ways)
Read this
http://www.uoregon.edu/~opp/climbing/topics/anchors.html

Keep learning!


(This post was edited by Colinhoglund on Apr 28, 2010, 5:10 PM)


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