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Building a crack machine / crack machine for technique?
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USnavy


May 5, 2010, 11:19 AM
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Building a crack machine / crack machine for technique?
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I am considering building a crack machine to put up at the local gym to help work on some basic crack climbing technique as our crags don't offer much crack climbing.

The crack would be 12' - 15' high and vertical. It must be fully adjustable from offwith to tips. The key is I would like it to be adjustable fast (i.e. a climber does a lap with offwith then goes to a lap of tips then a lap of fists, and so on). Consequently the whole bolt / All Thread idea most people use wont work as that takes too long to adjust. So I think I may mount the adjustable side of the crack to a sheet of wood. The sheet of wood will be mounted to two or three medium duty sliding drawer tracks which will then be mounted to the climbing wall. But the question is how can I lock the sliding side of the crack into place sense it will be on a track?

Once built should I line the crack with some type of grit? Previous searches shows about 50/50 with some saying its a bad idea as it will rip your hands up and the other half saying its important to do such as you cannot get any friction for the feet without it. How about using fine grit, fine enough to provide some friction but not rip the hands to hell. Is that a good idea?

Is it even worth building, will it help teach any technique at all? My idea was to read a book about crack climbing then go and practice the locks and techniques taught in the book on the crack machine. Is this a reasonable method of learning before I take a trip to Yosemite and actually try some cracks?


(This post was edited by USnavy on May 5, 2010, 11:27 AM)


brokesomeribs


May 5, 2010, 12:42 PM
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For the amount of time, money, frustration, and probable humiliation you will suffer in this wall's construction, you're probably just better off buying a plane ticket and going to Indian Creek.


viciado


May 5, 2010, 1:05 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Building a crack machine / crack machine for technique? [In reply to]
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Along with the issues of construction, you will basically have a single crack that just gets wider or smaller. What I mean is that whatever texture you create will be a constant and you will learned to climb that one particular crack (albeit from thin to fists). In the same way that you would want to change gym holds frequently, you would want to change your texture often. How will you accomplish that without it being a PITA?


sungam


May 5, 2010, 1:20 PM
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I would assume stuff like the big skinny flat ones in the middle of the pic for "slopes"
http://www.synrockholds.com/newscrew.html


Partner angry


May 5, 2010, 1:32 PM
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sungam wrote:
I would assume stuff like the big skinny flat ones in the middle of the pic for "slopes"
http://www.synrockholds.com/newscrew.html

Are you already drunk?


airscape


May 5, 2010, 2:13 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Building a crack machine / crack machine for technique? [In reply to]
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I once had an idea about mounting two vices on wall and bolting some wood between them. Hey presto adjustable crack.

If you make the jaws on the vices a little flexable you could even adjust it for tapered cracks.



I never tested it out or really went in depth with this thought though.


gmggg


May 5, 2010, 2:52 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Building a crack machine / crack machine for technique? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
I am considering building a crack machine to put up at the local gym to help work on some basic crack climbing technique as our crags don't offer much crack climbing.

The crack would be 12' - 15' high and vertical. It must be fully adjustable from offwith to tips. The key is I would like it to be adjustable fast (i.e. a climber does a lap with offwith then goes to a lap of tips then a lap of fists, and so on). Consequently the whole bolt / All Thread idea most people use wont work as that takes too long to adjust. So I think I may mount the adjustable side of the crack to a sheet of wood. The sheet of wood will be mounted to two or three medium duty sliding drawer tracks which will then be mounted to the climbing wall. But the question is how can I lock the sliding side of the crack into place sense it will be on a track?

Once built should I line the crack with some type of grit? Previous searches shows about 50/50 with some saying its a bad idea as it will rip your hands up and the other half saying its important to do such as you cannot get any friction for the feet without it. How about using fine grit, fine enough to provide some friction but not rip the hands to hell. Is that a good idea?

Is it even worth building, will it help teach any technique at all? My idea was to read a book about crack climbing then go and practice the locks and techniques taught in the book on the crack machine. Is this a reasonable method of learning before I take a trip to Yosemite and actually try some cracks?

It would be possible to build such a system. The problems, however, are:

A.) 12-15 feet? Try 30 minimum. Even if you have bad technique the first couple jams are pretty easy. It's the slippery-shaky-scary moving out of the crack at the end of a pitch that you would want to mimic.

B.) It will be expensive. Very expensive. If it isn't then it will be rickety. Very rickety.

C.) You can not build an adjustable OW. Well, at least not one that you could actually climb. The unit would have to be deep enough for arm bars, knee bars, etc...

D.) Sliding door tracks will not be strong enough. For a better system using off the shelf parts I would look at industrial panel saw fences, they still are probably not strong enough though.


I do think it could be done, but I can't see it being worth the effort. If you have access to a gym you might be better off making/buying some bolt on crack features. Even then there isn't really anything that great available; or that will train you well. But it will be cheaper and easier in the long run.


lonequail


May 5, 2010, 3:02 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Building a crack machine / crack machine for technique? [In reply to]
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You definately want to textureize it. A smooth crack will force you to overpower your jams. To work on technique it is better to have some friction and to mimic the rough texture of rock. If you want to make it more difficult then set it for the "off" sizes, or make it flare or overhanging. Learn finesse not power.

For good texture use a fine sand - the stuff added to paint to roughen steps works well. Normal laytex paint will work for a while but the grit wears off. For long term performance you may want an epoxy paint or some nasty maring stuff. You can probably also get stick-on strips, but at a high price.

Adjustability is needed, but for the OW size you'll probably need a much deeper crack to swim in. I actually have two cracks; one made from 2"x12"s for up to rattley fists, and one made from 4'x8' plywood. It is short but still a good learning tool.


(This post was edited by lonequail on May 5, 2010, 3:07 PM)


brokenankle


May 5, 2010, 3:29 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Building a crack machine / crack machine for technique? [In reply to]
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For the space that an adjustable crack machine will take up, you could easily build three or four different sized hand cracks. Fingers, off finger/tight hands, perfect hands. On the small sized cracks, bust out the shaper or sander to create tapers and a variety of sizes throughout the machine.

If the wall is only going to be 12' high, I would also suggest a slight overhang (maybe 5 degrees).


darkgift06


May 5, 2010, 6:39 PM
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brokenankle wrote:
For the space that an adjustable crack machine will take up, you could easily build three or four different sized hand cracks. Fingers, off finger/tight hands, perfect hands. On the small sized cracks, bust out the shaper or sander to create tapers and a variety of sizes throughout the machine.

If the wall is only going to be 12' high, I would also suggest a slight overhang (maybe 5 degrees).

I agree with this guy. I'd build 2-3 30' tall cracks. I'd build them in 10' tall sections so that every 10' I'd change the shape/width/depth so that the start might be tough jams mid might be fist jugs & the top fingers..


iron106


May 5, 2010, 7:23 PM
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Why not build several cracks all different sizes. You could also vary the width. 10 inches at the bottom 6 in at the top. The next one could be 6 inches at the bottom 4 in at the top make the 3rd 4 inches downs to 2 inches. It might be easier that way. 15' is not enough.


sungam


May 6, 2010, 10:40 AM
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angry wrote:
sungam wrote:
I would assume stuff like the big skinny flat ones in the middle of the pic for "slopes"
http://www.synrockholds.com/newscrew.html

Are you already drunk?
fuck eeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


jamesnater


Mar 30, 2012, 10:02 PM
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USnavy,

Did you ever get to building this crack machine? If so I'd be very interested in seeing pictures and maybe discussing what worked, what didn't, and things you might do differently next time.

I'm not a carpenter, but I absolutely love designing and building neat stuff like this!

I did some searching on rc, found Okieterry's Crack Machine. This thing looks bitchin', I want one.




petsfed


Mar 31, 2012, 1:47 AM
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Re: [lonequail] Building a crack machine / crack machine for technique? [In reply to]
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While it is the case that to learn technique, you don't want to have to use your muscles, learning crack technique (like any *single* technique) doesn't take much time. In the long run, you'll be better served to keep it smooth, and parallel, so when you really need that power reserve, in muscles that are impossible to train for otherwise, you'll have it. Otherwise, you'll spend all this time and effort building the stupid thing, get 30 hours of use out of it, then switch back to whatever power-endurance training you were already doing.

The idea is that when the crux is enduro ring locks with featureless stone, you've got the muscles necessary to punch it alongside the technique to actually hold on. Yes, it makes the feet much, MUCH harder. Welcome to crack climbing in the real world. If it was heavily featured, you wouldn't be training for it.

Also, vertical cracks are not nearly as useful as overhanging cracks for training purposes.

Even so, 2 weeks in Indian Creek and another 2 weeks bouldering at Vedauwoo will teach you more about crack climbing, especially hard and steep crack climbing, than any crack machine.


USnavy


Mar 31, 2012, 7:02 AM
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Nope, I never did end up building it. I wanted to build it to train for the Nose of El Cap, but in the end figured my time was better spent practicing aid related logistics rather than crack climbing.


totallyspoked


Mar 31, 2012, 11:13 AM
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I agree, that looks like it would be fun to put in the back yard for the kids, and me. I always have a stash of lumber, since I just run out to the first frame package clean up on a new house const. job site and talk the super into let me take it whenever I run out. Some boards have to have nails removed. I could definitely imagine building something like that either next to a tree or structure, but maybe with a few pieces of all thread ever so many feet bolted inside and out to make said adjustments. Cheap playground sand and the right paint would help also. That makes good cheap wall texture too.

I was also thinking that it would be cool to build a synthetic fireplace out of concrete or that stuff they blow in pools (gunite?), since we have a two story with a vaulted liv room ceiling. I was imagining a large granite imitation with fissures, cracks, and maybe a route on either side for a one of a kind fireplace.

Im just hoping some engineer type climber who hasnt gotten laid in 40 years and has nothing better to do than critique other peoples forum posts will come up with the plans to build it and make a you tube video for me to copy as I am too lazy and would rather just drink beer and climb. Not specifically implying anyone here. haha.


jamesnater


Apr 4, 2012, 12:08 AM
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petsfed wrote:
While it is the case that to learn technique, you don't want to have to use your muscles, learning crack technique (like any *single* technique) doesn't take much time. In the long run, you'll be better served to keep it smooth, and parallel, so when you really need that power reserve, in muscles that are impossible to train for otherwise, you'll have it. Otherwise, you'll spend all this time and effort building the stupid thing, get 30 hours of use out of it, then switch back to whatever power-endurance training you were already doing.

The idea is that when the crux is enduro ring locks with featureless stone, you've got the muscles necessary to punch it alongside the technique to actually hold on. Yes, it makes the feet much, MUCH harder. Welcome to crack climbing in the real world. If it was heavily featured, you wouldn't be training for it.

Also, vertical cracks are not nearly as useful as overhanging cracks for training purposes.

Even so, 2 weeks in Indian Creek and another 2 weeks bouldering at Vedauwoo will teach you more about crack climbing, especially hard and steep crack climbing, than any crack machine.


Perfect, thank you!! That was basically what I wanted to find out. But now I have another question...

As for coating it, do you have any insight on what to use to help weather-proof it AND keep it smooth? Should I just use paint or is there something better to use? I want to do this all in one shot so I'd rather not experiment if I don't have to.


(This post was edited by jamesnater on Apr 4, 2012, 12:34 AM)


petsfed


Apr 4, 2012, 1:15 AM
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You'd have to ask a carpenter about that.


edge


Apr 4, 2012, 1:55 AM
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jamesnater wrote:

As for coating it, do you have any insight on what to use to help weather-proof it AND keep it smooth? Should I just use paint or is there something better to use? I want to do this all in one shot so I'd rather not experiment if I don't have to.

So this will be kept outdoors in the elements? What kind of wood are you using?

If it is standard spruce/pine/fir framing lumber (not pressure treated) then I would sand it to 80 or 120 grit, give it a coat of a latex based exterior primer, hand sand it lightly with 120x, then finish with 2 coats latex exterior flat (house) paint.

You could also use an exterior stain, but they take a long time to dry and won't lock in the grain to hold back splinters. You would then need to coat with two applications of spar varnish, but I don't think this would be as good as the paint mentioned above.

Let me know if you are using some other type of lumber, and I'll alter the recommendation if need be.


jmichael


Apr 4, 2012, 2:05 AM
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Even decent paint will protect wood from the weather better than any high quality wood sealer. I'd still use pressure treated wood though, especially for any support posts that go into the ground or sit on the surface. You'll want to let any pressure treated wood sit for a while outdoors before painting as it's often pretty wet from the supplier and can take a while to dry out.


jamesnater


Apr 4, 2012, 6:27 PM
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I'll be using the regular SPF framing lumber, since it's most economical. It is going to be outside. I was going to make it permanent, but my room mate convinced me to make it "portable". Basically it's gonna look identical to the picture I posted, but the stands won't be permanent. We'll be able to break it down and stow it aside, covered in the back yard when not using it to try to keep it away from the elements, but we live in WA and it rains all the time so we'll see how that goes, haha!

And even when it is raining, I think if we just throw a tarp over it we can just climb inside it like a tent.


edge


Apr 4, 2012, 7:37 PM
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jamesnater wrote:
I'll be using the regular SPF framing lumber, since it's most economical. It is going to be outside. I was going to make it permanent, but my room mate convinced me to make it "portable". Basically it's gonna look identical to the picture I posted, but the stands won't be permanent. We'll be able to break it down and stow it aside, covered in the back yard when not using it to try to keep it away from the elements, but we live in WA and it rains all the time so we'll see how that goes, haha!

And even when it is raining, I think if we just throw a tarp over it we can just climb inside it like a tent.

Then definitely go with the paint and prep as I described above. You will want to make the ends as a wide "A" frame for stability, and with the added bonus of having head and foot room at the extreme ends. Maybe use pressure treated for a horizontal where they meet the ground to keep the ends from wicking in moisture. Good luck.


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