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Pat222


May 7, 2010, 11:01 AM
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Anchor Using Runners?
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Hi,

I climbed a lot this summer when i was away in Oregon at Smith and Frenchies Dome and a few other places. I worked at a camp and climbed pretty much daily. But im from Connecticut and there is not much around here. I heard about a place near my recently that has a small cliff which people normally anchor to a tree near the cliff. (Prob less than 10 feet im guessing, i still need to check it out soon)

Given these circumstances, would it be possible for me to anchor to the tree using runners? http://www.rei.com/product/474003 . My friend said i could girth hitch them together around the tree, then use 2 opposing locking biners and run the rope through those. Im not sure on the diameter of the tree, but i would most likely use 2 trees.

i attached two pictures to the thread. let me know
Attachments: resized climbing 2-1.jpg (96.6 KB)
  P5040362.JPG (95.3 KB)


dolphja


May 7, 2010, 11:03 AM
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Re: [Pat222] Anchor Using Runners? [In reply to]
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Pat222 wrote:
Hi,

I climbed a lot this summer when i was away in Oregon at Smith and Frenchies Dome and a few other places. I worked at a camp and climbed pretty much daily. But im from Connecticut and there is not much around here. I heard about a place near my recently that has a small cliff which people normally anchor to a tree near the cliff. (Prob less than 10 feet im guessing, i still need to check it out soon)

Given these circumstances, would it be possible for me to anchor to the tree using runners? http://www.rei.com/product/474003 . My friend said i could girth hitch them together around the tree, then use 2 opposing locking biners and run the rope through those. Im not sure on the diameter of the tree, but i would most likely use 2 trees.

i attached two pictures to the thread. let me know

the calm before the storm Pirate


buck0land


May 7, 2010, 11:14 AM
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Re: [Pat222] Anchor Using Runners? [In reply to]
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you should read "Rock Climbing Anchors" by Craig Luebben


Bolter


May 7, 2010, 11:15 AM
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Re: [dolphja] Anchor Using Runners? [In reply to]
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Classic TR!!

Not sure how many times people do that.

There is worse for sure.


qtm


May 7, 2010, 11:18 AM
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Re: [Pat222] Anchor Using Runners? [In reply to]
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Pat222 wrote:
Hi,

I climbed a lot this summer when i was away in Oregon at Smith and Frenchies Dome and a few other places. I worked at a camp and climbed pretty much daily. But im from Connecticut and there is not much around here. I heard about a place near my recently that has a small cliff which people normally anchor to a tree near the cliff. (Prob less than 10 feet im guessing, i still need to check it out soon)

Given these circumstances, would it be possible for me to anchor to the tree using runners? http://www.rei.com/product/474003 . My friend said i could girth hitch them together around the tree, then use 2 opposing locking biners and run the rope through those. Im not sure on the diameter of the tree, but i would most likely use 2 trees.

i attached two pictures to the thread. let me know

There's like a dozen TR anchor questions on the first two pages of the Beginners' forum. Read through them.


InDaDacks


May 7, 2010, 11:20 AM
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Re: [Pat222] Anchor Using Runners? [In reply to]
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First I'm going to assume that the black rope is the actual rope you're climbing on.

1. I personally don't like to girth hitch runners, especially dyneema ones.

2. In this set up the angle between the two anchors is too large, It's best to shoot for about 30 degs.

3. Unless the trees are right next to the cliff edge you will need to extend the anchors over the edge with static line.

All that being said, throw another 'biner where the rope runs through and I would rap on this set up.

I would suggest that you get some static line, webbing or chord (2x 15' at least to start) and Craig Luebben's Anchor Building book.

Stay Safe!


(This post was edited by InDaDacks on May 7, 2010, 11:21 AM)


dolphja


May 7, 2010, 11:47 AM
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buy this book or one that explains anchors http://www.amazon.com/...273257943&sr=8-2 and or get instruction from a competent & experienced climber


patmay81


May 7, 2010, 12:10 PM
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just get a hunk of 1" tubular webbing. its cheaper, stronger, more adjustable, and more versatile.


Pat222


May 7, 2010, 1:03 PM
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alright thanks guys


bill413


May 7, 2010, 1:07 PM
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Re: [patmay81] Anchor Using Runners? [In reply to]
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Mostly what indadaks & patmay said.

Your setup in photo 1 is ok, but...
The idea is fine.
The included angle is too large, you need to lengthen the slings that go to the "trees" so the angle they meet at at the carabiner is less.
DO NOT GIRTH HITCH SKINNY SLINGS - neither together nor to fatter ones.
Two trees are good.

Yeah, double up the biners where the rope runs through.


chrisJoosse


May 7, 2010, 7:25 PM
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Re: [Pat222] Anchor Using Runners? [In reply to]
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Titan spectra runners are remarkably strong, but the way you're using them in these pictures suggests that your system won't be as strong or as redundant as it could be. Here are a couple of notes on this:

-You give up a lot of strength- possibly as much as a third- when you connect runner to runner using a girth hitch. Better to use something long enough to make it all the way around the tree in one piece, like tubular webbing or static rope. (both of which are better and cheaper for this application than small runners). You also give up flexibility in the way you design your anchor if all you've got are 48" runners and you need to extend a leg.
-Where you have legs from different points coming together, pay attention to the loading angles- the more the legs deviate from the load vector, the more force they have to bear. In your first picture, where the left and right legs are at about 90 degrees apart, the force on each individual leg is increased by about 40% as a result.
-where you have legs from different points coming together to a single point, it's probably best to have a single locker for each leg connecting to the rope. What would happen if the 'biner in your first picture rotated such that the rope was running over the gate, and the legs were in opposing ends? You give up as much as two thirds of the strength of a typical 'biner by loading it across the minor axis, compared to its major axis rating.
-Pay attention to matters of redundancy within each leg- what would happen to that leg if any one of the runners in it (or the girth-hitch connecting them, which is the weak point in the leg) were to fail?

In reality, the individual components in your system are all quite strong and are probably unlikely to fail under toprope fall forces, even if your rigging sacrifices significant amounts of their rated strength. ...so I'm not saying yer gonna die, but I am saying your setups here could be improved considerably, for not much cost.

consider these for anchoring to trees, and keep your titan runners for anchoring to bolts:
http://www.rei.com/product/472049
http://www.rei.com/product/752375

This stuff is great if you want to extend your anchor (after all, not every tree is within 48" of the cliff's edge) and is probably longer-wearing than webbing
http://www.rei.com/product/472071

consider these a better resource on anchors than anything I might tell you:
http://www.rei.com/product/758923
http://www.rei.com/product/749158


sungam


May 8, 2010, 4:40 AM
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I know this has been said before, but you don't want to girth hitch those skinny slings. They can and have sheered themselves in that set-up. Info here on attaching slings.

Secondly, you're tri-axle loading the beaner. IE it's not loading along the spine, it's being pulled in three directions. You could solve this by tossing a fig. 8 or 9 on bight in the webbing/slings (knots can't be tri-axle loaded*), this would stop the problem.

3rdly, you might want to double up on your master point beaner, just for redundancy's sake. Screwgates can come undone with a lot of jostling about.

4) Try to reduce the angle made by the webbing between the anchors, if that makes sense. The larger this angle, the greater the forces on the anchors. This is due to some pretty basic physics (components of forces).

e) If you end up using webbing, make sure you are 110% sure of what knots to use and how to tie them. Triple check everything. tragedies have occurred where climbers who have tied a thousand water-knots miss-tied one and lost their lives.


acorneau


May 8, 2010, 7:10 AM
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sungam wrote:
Secondly, you're tri-axle loading the beaner.


Triaxial

Cool

(Sorry, but it's almost as bad as "repelling"!)


marc801


May 8, 2010, 7:48 AM
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acorneau wrote:
sungam wrote:
Secondly, you're tri-axle loading the beaner.


Triaxial

Cool

(Sorry, but it's almost as bad as "repelling"!)
Or misspelling biner


sungam


May 8, 2010, 9:11 AM
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Yesh, spelling isn't always my strong-point. Usually spell check saves me, but I guess I just got busted.


avalon420


May 8, 2010, 9:44 AM
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acorneau wrote:
sungam wrote:
Secondly, you're tri-axle loading the beaner.


Triaxial

Cool

(Sorry, but it's almost as bad as "repelling"!)
Also, NEVER load your Mexican over an edge.


jt512


May 8, 2010, 10:12 AM
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Re: [sungam] Anchor Using Runners? [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
Yesh, spelling isn't always my strong-point.

Nor is hyphenation. ;)

Jay


shu2kill


May 9, 2010, 5:47 PM
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avalon420 wrote:
acorneau wrote:
sungam wrote:
Secondly, you're tri-axle loading the beaner.


Triaxial

Cool

(Sorry, but it's almost as bad as "repelling"!)
Also, NEVER load your Mexican over an edge.

hahahaha, being a mexican beaner myself, that really made me laugh Cool


knudenoggin


May 9, 2010, 8:47 PM
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Re: [sungam] Anchor Using Runners? [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
I know this has been said before [yeah, it's a non-dying myth], but you don't want to girth hitch those skinny slings. They can and have sheered themselves in that set-up. Info here on attaching slings.

Crazy

It's funny that you both parrot the stupid myth AND yet give
its refutation all in one fell soup!
As was written long ago, but expected to need to be reiterated
to keep pace with the myth, ...

In reply to:
In reply to:
So should people be worried with all webbing girth hitched or just the 8 mm webbing.
None of the above. (People should be worried about how wild assertions and unfounded beliefs take hold quickly via the Net.)-:
Note that for ALL of the sling-2-sling combinations tried by Kolin, including SIXmm dental floss--both to a like sling, and to 11/16" nylon--, at least TWO severe test drops (severe, FF ~2(!)--highly unlikely in the field) were held.
Now, what was your worry?

*kN*


jbro_135


May 9, 2010, 10:06 PM
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knudenoggin wrote:
sungam wrote:
I know this has been said before [yeah, it's a non-dying myth], but you don't want to girth hitch those skinny slings. They can and have sheered themselves in that set-up. Info here on attaching slings.

Crazy

It's funny that you both parrot the stupid myth AND yet give
its refutation all in one fell soup!
As was written long ago, but expected to need to be reiterated
to keep pace with the myth, ...

In reply to:
In reply to:
So should people be worried with all webbing girth hitched or just the 8 mm webbing.
None of the above. (People should be worried about how wild assertions and unfounded beliefs take hold quickly via the Net.)-:
Note that for ALL of the sling-2-sling combinations tried by Kolin, including SIXmm dental floss--both to a like sling, and to 11/16" nylon--, at least TWO severe test drops (severe, FF ~2(!)--highly unlikely in the field) were held.
Now, what was your worry?

*kN*

The worry is having a strong anchor system if you're going to put your life on the line right? Given that he already has the necessary materials to construct a good anchor, why settle for something that is sub-optimal? If the slings in question are anything other than brand new it's possible that they are somewhat weaker. Skinny dyneema/spectra weakens over time when it is repeatedly loaded (for example when used in a top rope anchor like this one). If this sling has already been weakened by cyclical loading, uv exposure, etc. Then weakened further by girth hitching instead of just using a crab to connect the slings, it is possible that the anchor could fail.

Even if this scenario is extremely unlikely, it is still plausible and should be corrected because it is easy to do so.


guangzhou


May 9, 2010, 11:19 PM
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jbro_135 wrote:
knudenoggin wrote:
sungam wrote:
I know this has been said before [yeah, it's a non-dying myth], but you don't want to girth hitch those skinny slings. They can and have sheered themselves in that set-up. Info here on attaching slings.

Crazy

It's funny that you both parrot the stupid myth AND yet give
its refutation all in one fell soup!
As was written long ago, but expected to need to be reiterated
to keep pace with the myth, ...

In reply to:
In reply to:
So should people be worried with all webbing girth hitched or just the 8 mm webbing.
None of the above. (People should be worried about how wild assertions and unfounded beliefs take hold quickly via the Net.)-:
Note that for ALL of the sling-2-sling combinations tried by Kolin, including SIXmm dental floss--both to a like sling, and to 11/16" nylon--, at least TWO severe test drops (severe, FF ~2(!)--highly unlikely in the field) were held.
Now, what was your worry?

*kN*

The worry is having a strong anchor system if you're going to put your life on the line right? Given that he already has the necessary materials to construct a good anchor, why settle for something that is sub-optimal? If the slings in question are anything other than brand new it's possible that they are somewhat weaker. Skinny dyneema/spectra weakens over time when it is repeatedly loaded (for example when used in a top rope anchor like this one). If this sling has already been weakened by cyclical loading, uv exposure, etc. Then weakened further by girth hitching instead of just using a crab to connect the slings, it is possible that the anchor could fail.

Even if this scenario is extremely unlikely, it is still plausible and should be corrected because it is easy to do so.

It's also possible that he dies on the way to REI to buy new slings because you told him his might fail.


sungam


May 10, 2010, 6:22 AM
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knudenoggin wrote:
It's funny that you both parrot the stupid myth AND yet giveits refutation all in one fell soup!
Yeah, I worded it myth-wise, but whatever. The fact remains that girth hitches between what he seems to have going on there (8mm to 11/6"?) seem to fail at just over 50% of their rated strength, and this could be lowered by bad dressing (as it seems might be the case). Obviously this isn't a big deal in this set-up, but why breed bad habits?
Apologies again for spreading the BS spread onto the n00btoast.


jbro_135


May 10, 2010, 6:38 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
jbro_135 wrote:
knudenoggin wrote:
sungam wrote:
I know this has been said before [yeah, it's a non-dying myth], but you don't want to girth hitch those skinny slings. They can and have sheered themselves in that set-up. Info here on attaching slings.

Crazy

It's funny that you both parrot the stupid myth AND yet give
its refutation all in one fell soup!
As was written long ago, but expected to need to be reiterated
to keep pace with the myth, ...

In reply to:
In reply to:
So should people be worried with all webbing girth hitched or just the 8 mm webbing.
None of the above. (People should be worried about how wild assertions and unfounded beliefs take hold quickly via the Net.)-:
Note that for ALL of the sling-2-sling combinations tried by Kolin, including SIXmm dental floss--both to a like sling, and to 11/16" nylon--, at least TWO severe test drops (severe, FF ~2(!)--highly unlikely in the field) were held.
Now, what was your worry?

*kN*

The worry is having a strong anchor system if you're going to put your life on the line right? Given that he already has the necessary materials to construct a good anchor, why settle for something that is sub-optimal? If the slings in question are anything other than brand new it's possible that they are somewhat weaker. Skinny dyneema/spectra weakens over time when it is repeatedly loaded (for example when used in a top rope anchor like this one). If this sling has already been weakened by cyclical loading, uv exposure, etc. Then weakened further by girth hitching instead of just using a crab to connect the slings, it is possible that the anchor could fail.

Even if this scenario is extremely unlikely, it is still plausible and should be corrected because it is easy to do so.

It's also possible that he dies on the way to REI to buy new slings because you told him his might fail.

so he shouldn't wear his seatbelt properly because he might die anyway? it's pretty easy to just clip it


Robert_Paulson


May 14, 2010, 11:54 AM
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http://www.supertopo.com/...0-lbs-breaks-webbing

A 2006 post on SuperTopo (mentioned in the above BD sling tests) where girth hitched slings failed.

--RP


caughtinside


May 14, 2010, 12:13 PM
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Robert_Paulson wrote:
http://www.supertopo.com/...0-lbs-breaks-webbing

A 2006 post on SuperTopo (mentioned in the above BD sling tests) where girth hitched slings failed.

--RP

His name was Robert Paulson.

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