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kaizen
May 12, 2010, 5:15 PM
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While reading the thread on the rappelling accident in Yosemite, I noticed that the climbing partner mentioned they were upset that a passing party climbed over them during their climb. This got me thinking - what is really proper etiquette when it comes to passing parties? Personally, I don't climb in many high-traffic trad areas, and have never had a party pass me before.
Recently, a friend of mine was at the Gunks for her first ever leading experience. While about halfway through her first lead, a pair of climbers got on the same route that she was leading (again, for the first time), and ignored her belayer's request that they stay off. They climbed up to where she was, and basically forced her to get out of the way (told her to climb to traverse over to a small nook so they could pass safely).
In my opinion, if I was in her situation, and a passing party denied a request to wait and started climbing up to me, I would have nicely told them that if they come near me, I'll kick them straight off the route, literally. Not only is what they did generally rude, but it puts a first time leader in a very uncomfortable position, and given the nature of the scenario, probably significantly increases the chances for an injury or worse.
So what is everyones opinion?
My opinion is that if there is a party on a route, and for some reason you REALLY NEED to climb this route instead of the other 1500 lines at the place, you should ask both the leader and belayer if you may pass. If they ask you to wait until they are done, you should do so respectfully, or go find another climb. Don't press the issue, and don't deny their wishes. If they don't want you to pass them, then you need to either get to the crag earlier, wait for them, or go climb something else. Do you really need to climb that specific route?
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Gmburns2000
May 12, 2010, 5:26 PM
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communication is the key, in my opinion. just ask, and if they say no then go find another climb or wait. personally, it's not worth having a climber above me take a lead fall that could take me, as the leader, off the route with them.
however, if there are safe variations that allow one party to pass another, then I don't think that's as much of an issue as climbing the same line. sure, it helps to continue to talk to the climber on the other variation, but if it is safe to pass then let them pass.
now, if you're at the belay together, and if the slower party refuses to let the quicker party go by, and if the slower party isn't getting its act together when the quicker is ready to go, well, the slower party doesn't necessarily own the route.
but again, communication is key. safety, in my mind, should be the most important element of the conversation, and it's not just about you; it's about the safety of everyone involved.
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dingus
May 12, 2010, 5:26 PM
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Concur. But I'm not going to die by lightning over concerns of politeness. When the shit hits the fan I'll climb right up yer asshole if I have to.
Folks tend to wrap this into their own personal experience however. A day of cragging or grade IIs is a different prop from a grade V. Completely different set of concerns.
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on May 12, 2010, 5:29 PM)
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climbingaggie03
May 12, 2010, 6:06 PM
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I agree with dingus, I usually climb longer routes so speed is safety. Usually I ask if we can pass at a belay and usually people are agreeable to this. If people refuse and the weather is coming in, I will climb right by them. The only No-No I can really think of is messing with other people gear I wouldn't clip their gear, and I would do my best to keep my rope and gear from tangling with theirs.
I can't remember any bad experiences with passing, I was demoralized on nut cracker when a couple of cute girls passed us with out even breaking a sweat, but usually people are pretty mellow and don't want to have you breathing up their ass all day.
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darkgift06
May 12, 2010, 6:55 PM
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I'm with the first guy, no route is that important that you can't wait or get on another route. If they didn't respect my wanting to climb it without them passing me I'd also kick them right in the face till they fell off. Especially if I was a new leader, I'd have even more rights to freak out on the person coming up my ass. New leaders have enough head games to worry about without some ignorant prick who thinks hes some kind of climbing god getting all up in there business.
You want to be a pirate & rob me of my climb I have every right to be pissed.
I also agree if you are at a belay & the people coming up behind you are moving fast I'd take a water break at the belay & let them pass no problem.
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cracklover
May 12, 2010, 6:55 PM
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kaizen wrote: Recently, a friend of mine was at the Gunks for her first ever leading experience. While about halfway through her first lead, a pair of climbers got on the same route that she was leading (again, for the first time), and ignored her belayer's request that they stay off. They climbed up to where she was, and basically forced her to get out of the way (told her to climb to traverse over to a small nook so they could pass safely).
Fucking with a new leader like that is beyond rude, and entering the area of unjustifiably dangerous behavior. Yes, at that point it is a matter of getting physical if necessary.
GO
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trenchdigger
May 12, 2010, 7:06 PM
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Agreed... And I think it should also be noted that if you ask to pass me, you better be sure that you're faster and be holding me up in a few pitches!
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caughtinside
May 12, 2010, 7:08 PM
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how bout them Gunks climbers.
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evanwish
May 12, 2010, 7:34 PM
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I've had to pass a select few times, but all on easy routes. I believe the people passed the OP were complete assholes. If you're just cragging, you need to respect the requests of the people already on a route.
I passed someone on the fourth (and last) pitch of Cathedral Peak and rather than climbing over their rope I found a cool 5.7 R variation on really cool knobs: much more fun than crowding someone's line.
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welle
May 12, 2010, 9:07 PM
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In the OP's situation the belayer should have been more vocal. If it's a new leader, I'm hoping the belayer was more experienced and should have done more to protect the leader.
I was a witness to a similar situation when I knew both sides. I got into this sensitive situation where I could not take any party's side as they both had valid points. In this case the first party was taking at least 2 hours on this pitch and it was getting dark and cold, so the second party got tired of waiting on this semi-hanging belay and started climbing pass them... In my understanding, there was no intermediate rappel station to bail for the passing party.
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patmay81
May 12, 2010, 9:32 PM
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its been said and i agree, if its a grade II or III, passing can wait. There are a lot of classic lines in my area that people will wait all day to climb. its seriously like lines at disney land sometimes. And there are typically 3 parties on the routes (most are 2 or 3 pitches) at a time.
I've been behind parties on 5-6 pitch routes where passing was a matter of a 3 hour climb vs a hike out in the dark. Every time the leading party let me by at the belay.
I do not think passing mid pitch is polite, although it may be the only way. I've never been in a situation where this was the best option, but I'm not a big wall climber.
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bill413
May 12, 2010, 10:59 PM
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I agree that there is a difference between 2-3 pitch vs. 10 pitch climbs.
On relatively short climbs (all in the gunks) the second party darn well knows when they get on that there is someone ahead of them. Their choice to get on, they can suck it up & wait.
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