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gthomann
Oct 24, 2007, 6:05 PM
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Registered: Jul 25, 2007
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Who owns the land on the north side of the river where the Wind Wall, Recycle Rock, the Dihedrals, etc. are located? A couple of years ago I wanted to know, so I drove to the Herkimer county tax mapping office. I figured I would look at some drawings, aerial photos, deed descriptions and get it all figured out. As it worked out, I came home as least as confused as when I went.
Lately there have been more questions about ownership, and also rumors that somebody has bought certain of the crags. Yesterday, (Tuesday, Oct 23) I called Herkimer county to be sure they were open and then, letting hope triumph over experience, jumped into my trusty CRV and drove up there again.
The tax mapping office people have a map that shows the area from the Wind Wall to the Dihedrals, and it shows the Mohawk River, the CSX railroad, Highway 5, River Road, etc. South of the CSX tracks (between the tracks and the river) it even shows the ownership – most of this land is owned by the City of Little Falls and is used for their processing facilities. However, from the tracks north up to Highway 5 there is little information.
The first problem is the tax map does not show what land is owned by CSX. How wide is their right-of-way? Based on little concrete information, I assigned CSX a 100 ft wide ROW (50 ft on each side). I have uploaded a map with this ROW colored green. The other important features are also drawn into the map. South of the tracks you can see all the buildings and tanks for the sewage processing. The locations of the crags is of course approximate. If the CSX ROW is indeed 100 ft wide, if you go to the dihedrals and stand with your body pressed against the cliff, my drawing indicates you are somewhere close to the boundary.
From the northern edge of the supposed CSX ROW on north to Highway 5 I have filled using purple; the area is about 47 acres. Who owns the purple? The tax map more or less assigns the number 115.070-1 to this purple area, and there is a deed for a parcel number 115.070-1-1. The deed itself says the parcel is 5.5 acres. This piece of land, wherever it is, goes up for sale every 3 years for nonpayment of taxes. The last sale was in June of this year, when a Little Falls resident bought the parcel. I think this resident is friendly to climbers.
I have looked at deed 115.070-1-1 before. It first shows up in 1998 when Herkimer county sold the parcel to somebody. Nothing on the deed indicates where the parcel is located; there is no description at all. There is also nothing to indicate how the county got the parcel. As I mentioned above, since then this parcel has changed hands about every 3 years.
The funny thing is, if you go to the tax mapping office and give them the number 115.070-1-1, they say the parcel area is 31.7 acres, or something like that. But, when you go to the clerks office and look at the actual deed it says 5.5 acres. Neither office has any information about the parcel boundaries.
So, after this exhaustive research I am ready to answer all your questions.
1. Does the person who bought parcel 115.070-1-1 at the tax sale own 5.5 acres, 31.7 acres or some other area.
A. I don’t know
2. Does the person who bought parcel 115.070-1-1 own the purple area on the map.
A. I don’t know
3. Does the CSX railroad own the crags
A. I don’t know
4. Is there anybody who knows who owns the crags on the north side
A. No, I don’t believe there is.
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freedan
Oct 24, 2007, 6:17 PM
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Wow, thanks for trying. Sounds like an exercise in frustration. Every time I talk to somebody on Moss I get different and conflicting opinions of ownership and access over on the N. side. I would be great if a determination could be made because Wind Wall and Dihedrals really expand the climbing opportunities there.
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Tuwie
Oct 27, 2007, 7:14 PM
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If you visit little falls alot you might have met Dale. He is a local regular who climbs there quite a bit. You will see him free soloing most of the easier routes, or shooting up Fred P in a couple quick seconds. But anyways, he either knows who the owner is, or he is actually related to the owner of the strip of land along the tracks where the dihedrals are.
There really isnt much issue with climbing there, just the getting to there. Technically CSX could cause a fuss about us crossing the tracks but have yet to say anything. Most of the time I see them they just wave and keep going.
Sorry if this info doesnt help any, but from what I have learned the climbing area is pretty safe for climbing without incident.
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Tuwie
Oct 30, 2007, 11:04 PM
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OK I talked to Dale today at Moss Island. He reassured me that the entire strip of land where wind wall, cess pool, sports crag and the dihedrals are, are in fact privately owned by someone that is climber friendly.
So the only issue is getting to them, its technically illegal to cross the tracks, but if you do it fast and just get across there shouldnt be a problem. Dont walk along the tracks when going from spot to spot. There is a path right against the cliff's, use that.
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Adk
Dec 11, 2007, 1:10 PM
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Tuwie wrote: OK I talked to Dale today at Moss Island. He reassured me that the entire strip of land where wind wall, cess pool, sports crag and the dihedrals are, are in fact privately owned by someone that is climber friendly.
In fact, the owner is his relative!!!
As of late November the owner was allowing climbing but was concerned about the liability issues. I assured him that under NYS General Obligation Law (no one has ever won against it) as long as he didn't charge to use the area he couldn't successfully be sued if someone got hurt. He could take donations though.
Last I knew the taxes on the land were almost $1800 a year. (a relative of mine was the one that let it go)
If the taxes weren't so high I was going to buy it.
Pretty hard to break even on the taxes on that property!!
Would I pay to climb? Probably.....
From what I understand the property does not run all the way to the Dihedrals. It comes up just short a bit.
(This post was edited by Adk on Jan 15, 2008, 4:50 PM)
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grinspoon
Mar 5, 2008, 5:42 AM
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I spoke to the owner (Mike) last weekend at the cave, I've seen him the last 3 times we've been there. He is friendly to climbers, but he's now asking $10 per day/person to climb on his property. He said the taxes are so high he can't afford to let people use the land for free. He claims he has spoken to the Access Fund regarding his policy. He also said he plans to open up his land to camping for this summer. Camp/climb all weekend for $25. As much as I hate paying to climb, there's not much we can do.
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rhythm164
Mar 21, 2008, 8:29 PM
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sooooo, what areas exactly is ther now a fee for climbing, if you know. And how is he facilitating it? Seems like kind of a sham, camp in magestic Little Falls for 25 bucks.
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Adk
Apr 1, 2008, 1:32 PM
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Mike Lonas has been doing some work. He'll never get enough $ to pay for those taxes at $1800 a year.
I won't be climbing there for $10 a day. Plenty more climbing in the area there is and cheaper.
"He can't afford to let people use it for free". It was a relative that talked him into buying the property who climbs.....That is what he told me. Then he found out how much the taxes were going to be. He should have looked into it before he bought.
I can't see anyone owning this "almost" useless piece of property for very long unless the taxes get dumped on it.
If you ask me the taxes should be about 1/3 of what he is paying. I wish Mike the best but I just can't afford to pay that $$ for a day of climbing...there!!!
The camping/climbing fee together is a bit better deal though.
(This post was edited by Adk on Apr 1, 2008, 1:34 PM)
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bogwon
Jan 3, 2009, 12:27 AM
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Just to let everybody know. I am Michael F. Lonis, owner of the aforementioned property. As I see some degree of half-truths, speculation and general drivel regarding this property I will make it clear for all that I am the owner of the Wind Wall, and all the property including the Diheidrals and beyond. This also includes the "cess pool" or Green Lake if you wish to know the actual name, and the large building which was the John Pierce Stone Crusher. I do try to be climber-friendly. I did not buy the property under someone else's advisement and yes, Dale is my cousin's husband and also one of my oldest and most trusted friends. I do pay a very large amount in taxes on this property and I have worked hard my entire life to do such. I ask only that people respect my property and my wishes and ask permission to climb there. As for charging, I am asking that people who wish to use my property for any purposes, which I shall call "camping", contact me beforehand and I will discuss donations for such. I do not believe it unreasonable to do so and would not trespass on your property without your permission. Sorry if you do not agree or do not like the fact. I have an easy resolution for you. STAY AWAY!! Just for the record, I am an old grizzled biker with a bad back, bad knees and a bad attitude if you cross me. It's all about respect, kids. Give it and you get it. You may call me if you would like to do a little "camping" on my property at home 315-508 5013 or my cell phone 315 219 9127 if you can't reach me at home.
Your humble servant,
Michael F. Lonis
(This post was edited by bogwon on Apr 15, 2015, 4:40 PM)
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Adk
Jan 4, 2009, 2:45 AM
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Mike, great to see that you are accepting donations!!!
Let's make it clear if you don't mind. How much will you be asking for donation to camp?
How about climb?
To be respectful to the climbers here and prepare them for the amount they might need to fork out.
Tough to do much with the property. I hope that you can get your taxes reduced and off the vacant industrial property list.
That sucks!
Hey, if anyone out there needs a place to camp please call Mike. That land has spectacular sunsets, nice views and great views of the sky if you are a
stargazer. Might I add great climbing opportunities!
Mike, sorry if I may have been told a half truth. That means the other half was true. I'll be sure to publicly scold the individual who told me the wrong half and put them on the spot!
Tell Dale I said hi! No....Hi Dale!!!
(This post was edited by Adk on Jan 4, 2009, 3:22 AM)
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coolcat83
Jan 4, 2009, 3:00 AM
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some cooperative land maintainance might also be a good way to have all mutually benefit
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DeeS
Jan 4, 2009, 3:28 AM
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How about seasonal rates that are fair?
I used to climb there some time ago but haven't since the train wreck.
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bogwon
May 16, 2010, 3:18 PM
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seasonal rates are available. call Mike at 315 508 5316 or my cell at 315 219 9923. Thanx campers |
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Adk
May 17, 2010, 10:12 PM
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bogwon wrote: seasonal rates are available. call Mike at 315 508 5316 or my cell at 315 219 9923. Thanx campers Lets make these rates public Mike. What area they?
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bogwon
May 20, 2010, 9:35 PM
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Let's all let Mike decide. He owns it
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