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Darkside accident
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Partner robdotcalm


Jun 22, 2010, 7:51 PM
Post #176 of 191 (8951 views)
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
the pregnant 13 year-old is their parent's problem, not their climbing instructors

How can you be so sure without DNA testing?

r.c


JimTitt


Jun 23, 2010, 11:49 AM
Post #177 of 191 (8868 views)
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Re: [jt512] dangerous belayer [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:

For the benefit of those of us who can't read German, could you possibly explain how they collect and compute those statistics?

Jay

The DAV have centralised system to collect accident statistics coordinated with the medical insurance system, hospitals, mountain rescue, the ambulance/paramedical system and climbing wall operators. The centralised organisation of all rescue, medical facilitiesand insurance in Germany means if you ever got any kind of professional emergency assistance you get in the statistics. For climbing wall ėncidents´ not requiring medical treatment or rescue there are the statistics gathered by the association of climbing wall operators (the DAV is anyway the largest operator of walls in Germany).
The safety commision of the DAV publish a lengthy annual report in conjunction with the Austrian Alpine club (who have the same statistic gathering system) which is normally full of mountain walkers having heart attacks but otherwise contains some useful stuff. The reports are published 2 years in arrears if I remember correctly to allow for any possible legal proceedings and to allow 1yr for a definitive medical diagnosis of the consequences of any accident (that means dying later!).

The article in question lists the number of reported accidents with each type of belay device for 2009 along with the percentage of users for each type of device based on a survey conducted by the DAV and the Sportshochschule Koln. The rest is simple maths.

Jim


Partner macherry


Jun 23, 2010, 1:38 PM
Post #178 of 191 (8837 views)
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Re: [socalclimber] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
jomagam wrote:
Rgold really ? You wish climbing gear came with no instructions ? You're like that angry old man who wants children off his grass. Personal responsibility is a given especially because who the hell care whose fault is it if you or a friend gets seriously injured. Having said that you can have a legitimate discussion about the safety of various belay devices. It's nice to preach about users causing accidents, not gear, but reality has more shades than most people on this thread make it seem like.

Oh good lord and butter.

+1


jt512


Jun 23, 2010, 1:51 PM
Post #179 of 191 (8826 views)
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Re: [JimTitt] dangerous belayer [In reply to]
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JimTitt wrote:
jt512 wrote:

For the benefit of those of us who can't read German, could you possibly explain how they collect and compute those statistics?

Jay

The article in question lists the number of reported accidents with each type of belay device for 2009 along with the percentage of users for each type of device based on a survey conducted by the DAV and the Sportshochschule Koln. The rest is simple maths.

Jim

Earlier, you wrote that "statistically the accident rate [for the Cinch] is 21 times that of the Grigri and 112 times that of ATC style devices." If you're so inclined, I'd be interested in seeing exactly how you calculated those two figures.

Jay


bonner1040


Jun 23, 2010, 3:03 PM
Post #180 of 191 (8779 views)
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Re: [kostik] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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Kostik,

You and the belayer were both at the gym many times between the initial training and the accident.

I am not commenting on anything at all other than the fact that if you felt the training was incomplete, that the opportunity was most certainly there to complete it.

Where fault belongs is of no consequence, but by not saying "you need more training" you give the impression that training is complete.


ClimbClimb


Jun 23, 2010, 7:50 PM
Post #183 of 191 (8697 views)
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Re: [bonner1040] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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bonner1040 wrote:
You and the belayer were both at the gym many times between the initial training and the accident.

I think Kostik, the belayer, Mal and anyone around this accident feels horrible and guilty enough as it is. This is the kind of situation that is my nightmare, and I doubt I'm alone. I think the moderators may want to just lock this thread back up, b.c. it's not accomplishing anything with regards to the original incident.

As for the safety of the Cinch, can't that be a separate thread? Maybe in the gear forum? I gotta tell you, I've never used one, but it seems complicated to do use safely...

Finally, on personal responsibility, and with all due respect -- just becaomse someone is 99% responsible for their or their partner's fate, feeling guilty about your 1% part in it is the decent and human thing to do, not some sign of effeminate weakness or liability-society.


jakedatc


Jun 23, 2010, 8:12 PM
Post #184 of 191 (8687 views)
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Re: [ClimbClimb] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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In reply to:
but it seems complicated to do use safely...

it is not. As long as you read the directions and keep your hand on the brake like any other device they are a great tool.


ClimbClimb


Jun 23, 2010, 9:12 PM
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Re: [jakedatc] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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jakedatc wrote:
it is not. As long as you read the directions and keep your hand on the brake like any other device they are a great tool.

See new "Cinch safety thread" discussion for my response. http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2353262#2353262


JimTitt


Jun 24, 2010, 4:50 AM
Post #186 of 191 (8613 views)
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Re: [jt512] dangerous belayer [In reply to]
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56% of climbers used a ATC type of device (generically called Tuber over here) and two accidents were reported, one abseiling.
7% of climbers used a Grigri and two accidents were reported.
1% of climbers used a Cinch and 6 accidents were reported.

The percentage of users per accident is thus 28, 3,5 and 0,1666
or 168:21:1

(Looks like the simple math was too much for me the other day! The accident rate for the Cinch appears to be 168 times that of an ATC type device, not 112 as I wrote).

Jim


caughtinside


Jun 24, 2010, 9:41 AM
Post #187 of 191 (8571 views)
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Re: [JimTitt] dangerous belayer [In reply to]
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JimTitt wrote:
56% of climbers used a ATC type of device (generically called Tuber over here) and two accidents were reported, one abseiling.
7% of climbers used a Grigri and two accidents were reported.
1% of climbers used a Cinch and 6 accidents were reported.

The percentage of users per accident is thus 28, 3,5 and 0,1666
or 168:21:1

(Looks like the simple math was too much for me the other day! The accident rate for the Cinch appears to be 168 times that of an ATC type device, not 112 as I wrote).

Jim

what do the other 36% of climbers belay with?


adatesman


Jun 24, 2010, 10:09 AM
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billcoe_


Jun 24, 2010, 11:31 AM
Post #189 of 191 (8497 views)
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dangerous belayer [In reply to]
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karmiclimber wrote:
Honest question. How does one practice with, say a cinch, to become competent with it? It seems that even in practice, you are going to be putting someone at risk, no? I think that is why I stick with the ATC....its what I learned to belay on, so why change it up...

Simple yet important question. I didn't see where this was fully answered so I'll take a shot and maybe folks can add where I leave gaps.

1st: Use a "Back up belayer". You need 3 for this. Basically one person is climbing, the belayer is belaying, and a 3rd person does no more than stand behind the belayer with the brake rope in their hand. In the event that the belayer has both fingers up each nostril in a fall, the backup person simply tugs the brake rope and stops the fall. It's fool proof for any device belay and works for them all except a hip belay. The Munter isn't being braked the correct direction, but it will still work.

Next: Before the beginning belayer is anywhere near a cliff, they should have rigged these units enough to be able to do it blindfolded and "belayed" many rope lengths in a hallway, in front of the house on the sidewalk or whereever you can just find some room. Doesn't have to be at a climbing area. Just use the rope with you tied in as the "climber" walking towards them or away from them. Have them tied off to a telephone pole and as you are walking towards them and they are "belaying" the rope in, you snap back running as fast as you can: at first yelling "FALLING", then finally just yanking back in quiet, as they lock you off. Although the cinch/grigri orientation isn't perfect, it's same same for learning it. You do this over and over and over. You emphasis to them how critical these skill sets are. You switch hands and do it over and over and over again until it is 2nd nature to do the right thing.

Then you go to the rock....and then, if there is any question on skillset and retained memory, see #1 above.
________________________________________________

rgold wrote:
I'm growing weary of an emphasis on failure of technology and poor instruction that casts the incompetent as hapless victims of circumstances beyond their control.

Concur, well spoken as always.


JimTitt


Jun 24, 2010, 12:09 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] dangerous belayer [In reply to]
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It´s like Airic says, I left them out as this was not relevant to the topic.


jt512


Jun 25, 2010, 9:57 AM
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Re: [JimTitt] dangerous belayer [In reply to]
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JimTitt wrote:
56% of climbers used a ATC type of device (generically called Tuber over here) and two accidents were reported, one abseiling.
7% of climbers used a Grigri and two accidents were reported.
1% of climbers used a Cinch and 6 accidents were reported.

The percentage of users per accident is thus 28, 3,5 and 0,1666
or 168:21:1

I'm not sure how seriously people reading this are taking these figures. You can't validly infer the relative risks of the devices from from crude calculations such as these.

Jay

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