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robdotcalm
Jun 28, 2010, 3:22 AM
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Another serious accident occurred at Eldorado Canyon today. Two climbers were simul-climbing as they attempted to do 100 pitches in a day. High up on the Redguard Route (5 pitches), the leader fell over 90 ft. suffering serious head injuries. Bill Wright, the other climber has written a detailed account of the accident.
http://web.me.com/...Link-Up_Attempt.html
Hopes and prayers to Tom for a speedy and successful recovery.
Rob.calm
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philbox
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Jun 28, 2010, 4:55 AM
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Very interesting read. Major props to him for baring his soul to the world warts and all.
As this is the accident and injury analysis thread I reckon it is fine to objectively review what could, should or would have been done had it been any of us up on the wall faced with a similar incident. I'd hate that any of us would be critical of the manner with which he dealt with the situation though. None of us were in his headspace and facing such a terrifying incident.
That said, I think I would be taking a little more self rescue gear and I usually do. I think that we all need to have a self rescue plan in force in our minds and have the gear necessary to fulfill any need for self rescue. By and large merely thinking and planning for such an eventuality may negate the need to use that gear because we then may alter the way we do our adventures.
Yes, lots of generalities in my statements as I am trying to avoid pointed criticism of the participants in this accident.
Bill decided to sit tight and holler for help. That was his decision to make. I believe that he should have made his way down to his wounded compadre. But as I said, he did what he could at the time and he didn't make himself into another victim thus compounding the problems for his rescuers.
His prussiks holding the rope to his first anchor could have been tied in a way that is releasable.
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flamer
Jun 28, 2010, 5:33 AM
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philbox wrote: That said, I think I would be taking a little more self rescue gear and I usually do. I think that we all need to have a self rescue plan in force in our minds and have the gear necessary to fulfill any need for self rescue. By and large merely thinking and planning for such an eventuality may negate the need to use that gear because we then may alter the way we do our adventures.
...having "self rescue gear" is not conducive to climbing fast. The game these guys were playing is NOT the game you play.
You realise that climbing 100 pitch's in a day is equivalent to climbing Elcap 4 times right? Well roughly....certainly 3.
When you make the choice to play this kind of game, you're "rescue plan" is pretty much exactly what Bill did...the very best he could with what he had. There's not room for more.
josh
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philbox
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Jun 28, 2010, 8:36 AM
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flamer wrote: philbox wrote: That said, I think I would be taking a little more self rescue gear and I usually do. I think that we all need to have a self rescue plan in force in our minds and have the gear necessary to fulfill any need for self rescue. By and large merely thinking and planning for such an eventuality may negate the need to use that gear because we then may alter the way we do our adventures. ...having "self rescue gear" is not conducive to climbing fast. The game these guys were playing is NOT the game you play. You realise that climbing 100 pitch's in a day is equivalent to climbing Elcap 4 times right? Well roughly....certainly 3. When you make the choice to play this kind of game, you're "rescue plan" is pretty much exactly what Bill did...the very best he could with what he had. There's not room for more. josh
All true but then their decisions which they have to live or die by entail others having to drag their sorry asses off the cliff thus placing others in danger. Yes it's a game that is played but the addition of one or two more prussiks and perhaps another crab wouldn't put an undue burden on the team.
A bit of what if planning ahead of the event would also not go astray.
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bennydh
Jun 28, 2010, 9:51 AM
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I read the story, and all I can think is 'Why?'.
Beyond that, its like a free soloist expecting a spot. :/
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davidnn5
Jun 28, 2010, 9:56 AM
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FF 1.4 "you retire the rope" - comments?
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Gabel
Jun 28, 2010, 10:09 AM
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Uh, what a fall!
It must be awful to take a whipper so big you actually have time to think.
Very sorry to hear about this accident, may he heal in time.
The helmet saved his life.
(This post was edited by Gabel on Jun 28, 2010, 10:10 AM)
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gblauer
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Jun 28, 2010, 10:30 AM
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Crazy story. Thankfully they both lived to tell the tale. Wishing a speedy Recovery to Tom.
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patto
Jun 28, 2010, 11:53 AM
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philbox wrote: All true but then their decisions which they have to live or die by entail others having to drag their sorry asses off the cliff thus placing others in danger. Yes it's a game that is played but the addition of one or two more prussiks and perhaps another crab wouldn't put an undue burden on the team. A bit of what if planning ahead of the event would also not go astray.
Given the proximity of help, waiting for it was probably the fastest and best response. For self rescue the non injured party would have needed to descend building an anchor then accend and do a double rope rap to get to his partner with his rope.
He needed alot more than a few more prussiks to be of any use at all.
(This post was edited by patto on Jun 28, 2010, 11:55 AM)
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flamer
Jun 28, 2010, 12:35 PM
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philbox wrote: All true but then their decisions which they have to live or die by entail others having to drag their sorry asses off the cliff thus placing others in danger. Yes it's a game that is played but the addition of one or two more prussiks and perhaps another crab wouldn't put an undue burden on the team. A bit of what if planning ahead of the event would also not go astray.
If you think this than you don't know the game.
....and you don't know the climbers.
josh
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Tipton
Jun 28, 2010, 1:55 PM
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I'm not usually the type to fuss about climbers paying for the rescue, but this is the third time the blog author has been in need of RMR. At this point he should make a sizable donation to them or at least quit trying things that are so dangerous.
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JAB
Jun 28, 2010, 1:58 PM
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philbox wrote: flamer wrote: philbox wrote: That said, I think I would be taking a little more self rescue gear and I usually do. I think that we all need to have a self rescue plan in force in our minds and have the gear necessary to fulfill any need for self rescue. By and large merely thinking and planning for such an eventuality may negate the need to use that gear because we then may alter the way we do our adventures. ...having "self rescue gear" is not conducive to climbing fast. The game these guys were playing is NOT the game you play. You realise that climbing 100 pitch's in a day is equivalent to climbing Elcap 4 times right? Well roughly....certainly 3. When you make the choice to play this kind of game, you're "rescue plan" is pretty much exactly what Bill did...the very best he could with what he had. There's not room for more. josh All true but then their decisions which they have to live or die by entail others having to drag their sorry asses off the cliff thus placing others in danger. Yes it's a game that is played but the addition of one or two more prussiks and perhaps another crab wouldn't put an undue burden on the team. A bit of what if planning ahead of the event would also not go astray.
In hindsight, it appears he did everything just right. He managed to lower the injured guy to a ledge, atttract help, and not make a victim of himself. It doesn't sound like he would have been of any additional help even if he had managed to reach the injured partner. And starting some lowering scenario could very well have caused additional injuries. Usually it's a good idea not to move a person who might have back or neck injuries. Not to mention that a lowering scenario would have required lots and lots of time, with them having only a 100 feet rope (assuming it would have been even theoretically possible).
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rtwilli4
Jun 28, 2010, 2:03 PM
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First I'd like to wish Tom a speedy recovery and Bill as well. And Thanks to Bill for writing this up. I believe that accurate and timely reports in these situations will save a life some day. It is pretty amazing that you were able to write that up... well done.
Since this IS the Analysis thread, is it appropriate for some experienced climbers to talk about what Bill could have done differently? In no way do I think we should be second guessing his efforts because we weren't there and can't possibly relate. It seems that everything went about as smoothly as it could after the initial fall and that Bill knew that there was rescue on the way.
But what if there was no rescue? What if they had been in the wilderness?
What if there WAS possibility of Rescue, and it was obvious to Bill that Tom needed immediate assistance (he wrote that this was NOT obvious to him, and that factored into his decisions).
There are many more "what if's" but specifically for the two above, I would like to get an idea of what exactly could be done.
If this is the place for it, then let's talk about it. IF THIS IS NOT THE PLACE THEN SOMEONE LET ME KNOW AND I'll DELETE.
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lena_chita
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Jun 28, 2010, 2:09 PM
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Wow, so many accidents...
I am very happy to hear that both climbers lived, and that Tom would recover fully. Helmet saved Tom's life, no question. My thoughts are with these guys... it must have been incredibly hard to write it up.
bennydh wrote: I read the story, and all I can think is 'Why?'.
For the same reason(s) you have when you climb. You make your choices on style, protection, boldness, difficulty, etc. But you take risks when you climb.
These guys made a choice that you may not be comfortable with. I certainly don't feel that I can climb 100 pitches in a day, or that I should be simul-climbing. Which is why I don't do it.
But other people do. And I am not the judge.
bennydh wrote: Beyond that, its like a free soloist expecting a spot. :/
Not sure I get your meaning here. No climber, no matter what style of climbing they do, starts out on their climb expecting to need rescue or help. These guys didn't either.
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majid_sabet
Jun 28, 2010, 4:54 PM
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This was one of the most dangerous self-rescue project I have ever heard with such a poor planning. climbing a tensioned rope ( with an injured climber at the end)on a piece that just took 100 feet of FF2 with no extra rope or gear was a bad idea especially when your action did not do anything other than jeopardizing your own lives.
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tangen_foster
Jun 28, 2010, 6:10 PM
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I don’t get “the game:” if the object is to free climb a route on lead, and you have a fixed line next to the route you’re climbing, which you use during the ascent, (Bill said in his blog he rapped the line during the ascent to free a stuck line) doesn’t that negate the object of the game? Why not use the fixed line to protect the climbers throughout the ascent? Even if you don’t use it, just the presence of a fixed line changes the nature of the game. If a line was fixed next to one section of the linkup, why not fix lines on all sections? A fixed line on the section where the climber fell certainly would have simplified the rescue.
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flamer
Jun 28, 2010, 6:35 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: This was one of the most dangerous self-rescue project I have ever heard with such a poor planning. climbing a tensioned rope ( with an injured climber at the end)on a piece that just took 100 feet of FF2 with no extra rope or gear was a bad idea especially when your action did not do anything other than jeopardizing your own lives.
You need to reread what Bill wrote.
At no time did he climb the tensioned line.
FF2 with that much rope out and pure dynamic(ie counter-weight) belay? Extremely doubtful.
josh
josh
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wmfork
Jun 28, 2010, 6:38 PM
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flamer wrote: You realise that climbing 100 pitch's in a day is equivalent to climbing Elcap 4 times right? Well roughly....certainly 3.
This is Eldo we are talking about, I'd say an average pitch is a lot closer to 60 ft than 90-100 ft, and what they were climbing are a lot easier than an average pitch on El cap, free or aid. Like someone else said, this is the 3rd time the author had to call RMR, that kind of makes me question his decision making. And having the first 1/3 of the novel (umm blog) read like self-promotion doesn't help either.
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flamer
Jun 28, 2010, 6:39 PM
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tangen_foster wrote: I don’t get “the game:” if the object is to free climb a route on lead, and you have a fixed line next to the route you’re climbing, which you use during the ascent, (Bill said in his blog he rapped the line during the ascent to free a stuck line) doesn’t that negate the object of the game? Why not use the fixed line to protect the climbers throughout the ascent? Even if you don’t use it, just the presence of a fixed line changes the nature of the game. If a line was fixed next to one section of the linkup, why not fix lines on all sections? A fixed line on the section where the climber fell certainly would have simplified the rescue.
The fixed lines were put in place to faciliate a faster decent...allowing the team more time for climbing and less for descending. The descent off this section of Eldo is a complex and long(compared to the lenght of the routes) walk/scramble off.
The fixed line was only next to that particuliar climb....they were doing a whole bunch of climbs that weren't close and the fixed lines would be the rappel descent for all of the routes.
It's funny that, once again, people at Mountainproject.com and Supertopo.com...."get it" and the RC.com crowd doesn't.
josh
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bennydh
Jun 28, 2010, 7:29 PM
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lena_chita wrote: Wow, so many accidents... I am very happy to hear that both climbers lived, and that Tom would recover fully. Helmet saved Tom's life, no question. My thoughts are with these guys... it must have been incredibly hard to write it up. bennydh wrote: I read the story, and all I can think is 'Why?'. For the same reason(s) you have when you climb. You make your choices on style, protection, boldness, difficulty, etc. But you take risks when you climb. These guys made a choice that you may not be comfortable with. I certainly don't feel that I can climb 100 pitches in a day, or that I should be simul-climbing. Which is why I don't do it. But other people do. And I am not the judge. bennydh wrote: Beyond that, its like a free soloist expecting a spot. :/ Not sure I get your meaning here. No climber, no matter what style of climbing they do, starts out on their climb expecting to need rescue or help. These guys didn't either.
lena_chita,
I sometimes simul with a partner. With that said, I also want to be clear that when I simul, I am not consistently leaving 50+ foot gaps in between gear.
From the Blog:
"If the first climber falls and the gear is solid, it can be very similar to a regular belayed fall, though much scarier and potentially much more serious."
It's the delusional and undermining logic about the safety of such shenanigans that has led to needing rescue. (More than once now?)
It should read, "during this type of climbing, a leader fall will likely kill someone, we would be lucky to live, and thankful if the climbing community can save one or both of us."
Its obvious I'm not stoked about this 'Tragedy' and feel it should have been avoided all together. I also want to say how happy I am that no one is dead, and how great it is that a helmet saved a life.
Tom please have a speedy and complete recovery.
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kachoong
Jun 28, 2010, 8:00 PM
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Oh man... what an emotional read...  ... Props to Bill for the courage to express his thoughts and in such vivid detail. I'm sure Bill, you did all you could with what you had and while being, I'm sure, in a natural state of shock in the moment. You tried something and showed much heroism in doing what you thought was best for your partner.
Recover fast and fully, Tom... our thoughts are with you.
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ClimbClimb
Jun 28, 2010, 8:07 PM
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bennydh wrote: Its obvious I'm not stoked about this 'Tragedy' and feel it should have been avoided all together.
So you know how we were having a discussion in this very forum recently about why is it that family+friends+partners often choose to withhold information right after an accident?
I think the posts you and several others in this thread have made are a sad illustration of why many traumatized people choose not to disclose accident details in the heat of the moment. Picking out little details like a lawyer, citing a climber's prior accidents from his block, putting tragedy in quotes, etc. -- really, just how low can you go?
Best wishes to the injured climber, his partner, and all those affected. Special thanks to the partner for courageously posting his account of the accident, subjecting himself to both the trauma of reliving it and to the ridicule of Internet forums.
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bennydh
Jun 28, 2010, 8:21 PM
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The endeavor itself is fine, whether or not I care about it or a 13 year old on Everest is irrelevant.
The simul climbing could have been safer, fall lengths limited with more gear placements, maybe a near tragedy avoided altogether. Helmets are awesome. That's a quick Analysis of the Accident.
I'll now see my way out of the conversation as not to upset anyone else.
Again, my best wishes for a speedy recovery of the injured climber, and thank you Bill even if I've been hypercritical about the style of your endeavor for sharing bravely and putting yourself in the way of enduring my criticism.
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boymeetsrock
Jun 28, 2010, 8:30 PM
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kachoong wrote: Oh man... what an emotional read... ... Props to Bill for the courage to express his thoughts and in such vivid detail. I'm sure Bill, you did all you could with what you had and while being, I'm sure, in a natural state of shock in the moment. You tried something and showed much heroism in doing what you thought was best for your partner. Recover fast and fully, Tom... our thoughts are with you.
+1
And to Those of you who can't read, please go back and try again. Bill was clear about where the fixed lines were and what they were for. And this is not his third rescue. One mentioned rescue was of a friend of his. The other was an unfortunate ground fall he took (not soloing if I understood correctly, but not totally sure right now).
Josh, your comments seem right on from what I can read.
Again, best wishes to Bill and Tom. Proud objective, sad outcome.
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philbox
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Jun 28, 2010, 8:50 PM
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rtwilli4 wrote: First I'd like to wish Tom a speedy recovery and Bill as well. And Thanks to Bill for writing this up. I believe that accurate and timely reports in these situations will save a life some day. It is pretty amazing that you were able to write that up... well done. Since this IS the Analysis thread, is it appropriate for some experienced climbers to talk about what Bill could have done differently? In no way do I think we should be second guessing his efforts because we weren't there and can't possibly relate. It seems that everything went about as smoothly as it could after the initial fall and that Bill knew that there was rescue on the way. But what if there was no rescue? What if they had been in the wilderness? What if there WAS possibility of Rescue, and it was obvious to Bill that Tom needed immediate assistance (he wrote that this was NOT obvious to him, and that factored into his decisions). There are many more "what if's" but specifically for the two above, I would like to get an idea of what exactly could be done. If this is the place for it, then let's talk about it. IF THIS IS NOT THE PLACE THEN SOMEONE LET ME KNOW AND I'll DELETE.
Well said and this IS the place to discuss all sorts of what ifs.
The author bared his soul for us for which the climbing community should be eternally grateful. It is an object lesson for us all to learn from. We SHOULD discuss the various scenarios that come to mind whilst reading his story.
Kachoong makes an extremely good and totally relevant point that the author would have been in shock and to do what he did after looking into his partners face during the fall is simply put a very brave act.
Nothing we can say takes anything away from the authors actions. It is always right and proper to have a discussion though. If kept civil these type of discussions are a great learning tool.
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