Jul 8, 2010, 9:02 PM
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Re: [adatesman] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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Sitting here in my chair...self rescue is scarier. When I've been in the middle of the situation, being pumped and runout over bad gear has left me more scared. It's the immediate terror of the situation, whereas with a rescue situation, you have a little time to think things over and take a course of action that will involve a much longer time. In my limited experience with rescue, there is no primal fear involved (of course I've never been the injured party!).
(This post was edited by csproul on Jul 8, 2010, 9:04 PM)
Jul 8, 2010, 9:22 PM
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Re: [adatesman] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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Well I have had to perform a rescue on another climber and I have been pumped out while on a 65 foot run out.
While I've never had to perform a self rescue I would say that the self rescue is scarier. There are more things going on, more to deal with, and there is a good chance that if you’re self rescuing you've already been pumped out on a run out and fell.
Jul 8, 2010, 9:28 PM
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Re: [adatesman] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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I have had to perform self rescue on a multipitch ice climb after falling and breaking my leg (factor 2 fall, I prusik to the anchor, assisted rap with partner).
I have also gotten pumped way run out.
Self rescue = way scarier. You still have a chance of avoiding injury in the pump situation if you get your sh*t together mentally and get a little lucky.
Jul 8, 2010, 9:46 PM
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Re: [adatesman] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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I guess I'm weird, but I voted runout.
Last time I was runout my legs were shaking, beads of sweat rolling down my face, legs shaking uncontrollably, and I backed off the moves twice, ultimately retreating off the climb.
I don't see an injury and/or self-rescue as "scary", just a fact of the circumstances and something to be managed.
Jul 8, 2010, 10:48 PM
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Re: [adatesman] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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I would think that it would be different types of fear. I don't know that I could run a direct comparison. I've been pumped and run out before in an exposed position. That fear was a (largely) irrational fear of something very immediate and visceral. When I took a few deep breaths and pulled my head out of my ass, I was able to calm down and keep moving.
I have never had to retreat off of a multipitch route due to injury, and even then, I don't normally climb routes longer than three to six pitches, so it's not that epic. Let's say I was on the fifth pitch of a route, badly injured ankle, nightfall is a few hours off and it's not a high traffic area like Squamish or the Gunks. I think that sort of fear would would be my imagination running away with worst case scenarios, but typically I'm not one to panic or get too upset in situations like this. That's all speculation though.
(This post was edited by kriso9tails on Jul 8, 2010, 10:50 PM)
Jul 8, 2010, 11:45 PM
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Re: [adatesman] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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adatesman wrote:
jjanowia wrote:
You still have a chance of avoiding injury in the pump situation if you get your sh*t together mentally and get a little lucky.
Bingo. Not even in the same category as having your partner out of sight, hearing a scream just before the rope comes tight and then getting no response to calls asking if they're ok. Welcome to self rescue.
It varies by situation and by degree. Long years of following a crazy ass bastard with a death wish up and down mountains alpine style has acquainted me with fear and it's debilitating effects.
So which is the greater fear?
In the world where go light go fast is king and retreat is sometimes impossible it's not uncommon to be in situations where simulclimbing is a necessity and running it out on shitty pro is SOP. Knowing that if you fail you consign both you and your partner to certain death. Over a single pitch. No biggie. Over several pitches while trying to stay ahead of a storm that will kill you if you falter...
Yet if you were to get hurt...in such a world where the chances of being rescued are nil and injury is thought to be a death sentence. The only chance for life is to fight and claw for it. Over endless miles of water you cannot drink, fighting fatigue and the need to rest that will end in your death. Struggling to do the simplest of tasks with fingers that no longer work...
I have been through both hells and I can honestly say that when the consequences of failure is death the fear is the same in both situations. The only difference was the duration. One lasted for hours, the other lingered days.
Jul 9, 2010, 1:02 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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majid_sabet wrote:
adatesman wrote:
Any guesses which of your Wabbits my cohort is, Majid?
Dealing with self-rescue is scarier cause you are there every second of it.
As opposed to nearly pumping out 60ft above your last alien on an 80° granite slab 12 pitches up in bad weather, where your mind drifts from the threat of inminent bodily harm to things like rainbows and pixies.
Jul 9, 2010, 1:35 AM
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Re: [adatesman] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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adatesman wrote:
So I'm currently involved in an offline discussion with <name withheld> and the topic came around to which is scarier- dealing with injury and self rescue on multipitch or being pumped and run out.
My contention is that injury and self rescue is always something that should always be taken quite seriously and being in that situation is much worse than the thought of being pumped, run out and looking at a long fall.
To prevent possibly misrepresenting my cohort's views, I'll allow him to explain them himself:
In reply to:
Self-rescue is not rocket science and a moderate injury on a multi-pitch line is, believe it or not, not the most mentally challenging task you can find yourself in. Being ten pitches off the deck in high winds, countless feet past your last piece, pumped as hell with no rest in sight, with a shitty last piece, risking the largest whipper you have ever taken in your life, while your belayer is playing with the centipede at the belay station, is far worse then the mental aspect of retreating on a climb with an injured climber.
Perhaps I'm just gunshy after having to actually do the self rescue thing when I shattered my ankle on multipitch and was well into the pain/fear/shock thing by the time I got my partner (who was new to climbing) up to me and was able to begin explaining how self rescue works. Then again, perhaps my cohort really is a n00b with balls bigger than his brain and has a feeling of invincibility due to his youth and lack of experience. Dunno.
Anyway, I figured it might be an interesting topic to discuss, so which do you find scarier and why?
(edit: typo)
Sounds like your cohort has explained a situation where he gets to experience both.
cheesetit edit
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Jul 9, 2010, 1:48 AM)
Jul 9, 2010, 2:21 AM
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Re: [acorneau] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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acorneau wrote:
I guess I'm weird, but I voted runout.
Last time I was runout my legs were shaking, beads of sweat rolling down my face, legs shaking uncontrollably, and I backed off the moves twice, ultimately retreating off the climb.
If you were able to back off and retreat then you were not seriously runout in a scary bad way IMO
Jul 9, 2010, 4:33 AM
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Re: [adatesman] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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I can see both sides of the argument.
From my armchair, I'm more scared of the self-rescue situation, than the gripped.
But, I think that I would find the actual emotional intensity of the fear in the moment far higher and more intense (though of shorter duration) in the gripped situation than the rescue one.
Jul 9, 2010, 8:52 AM
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Re: [adatesman] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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I actually am a n00b with balls bigger than my brain, so there are probably elements of this that I have neither experienced nor thought of. But...
For me, the issue is time. If I'm run out & pumped, the clock is ticking and I have very little time. The result of a major fall like that can be serious injury or even death, and I have mere minutes or maybe even just seconds to find a solution, if there is one. If I have to do self-rescue, I may have a strategic puzzle to solve, but the extreme urgency isn't there. I would typically have many more minutes and maybe even hours to solve the problem.
The urgency makes the runout situation sound scarier to me.
Jul 9, 2010, 12:45 PM
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Re: [kriso9tails] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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kriso9tails wrote:
I would think that it would be different types of fear.
This is also my response... Being gripped, pumped and run-out your focus narrows and the unknown can be overwhelming. In a rescue you can usually get it together and (should) know what to do, if you're the type of person who can get it together. As Bill7 said, if it's you that's in need of rescue then it's another ballgame wrapped in shock.
The most fear I have ever felt in a climbing environment was roped up, winding through a crevasse field of gaping black maws and half-detatched house-sized ice blocks, and waiting to be swallowed at any moment. In those (hour of) moments it was my imagination that gripped me with fear.
So, to answer the black/white poll, I would say being gripped in an uncontrollable situation, unless it was myself that was injured, in which case shock could perhaps override everything (but then again adrenaline can kick in and override the shock).
Jul 9, 2010, 2:51 PM
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Re: [dagibbs] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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Hmm, another armchair chiming in here...
Taking a mild runout compared with a benign self-rescue situation... I'd say the runout is scarier. It's "If I fall it'll hurt. I might get injured. Will that last piece hold? What's below? OMG I'm pumping out. I'm gonna fall, shit shit shit!" vs "Oh no, I/my buddy just got hurt we must get down. Don't screw this up now!"
But if both scenarios get more serious, a rescue scenario is far worse.
Worst case runout scenario is.... well certain death if you fall and you realize you're in over your head technically. Scary as hell, but you still stand a fighting chance. You got there right? You should be able to get out of there.
Worst case rescue scenario? Way worse. Think Toni Kurz. Or imagine your partner bleeding to death while you can't do a thing about it. You are badly hurt. You know your chances are nil, and if you'd survive by some miracle you'll have to tell his kids that Daddy is not coming home.... Way worse.
Jul 9, 2010, 3:21 PM
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Re: [dingus] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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dingus wrote:
Its not armchair for me.
Very hard to compare the fears 'head to head' (hehe).
The accident / rescue sort of fear is quite different from the leader's fear of falling.
Both situations can provoke panic attacks but beneath that threshold the fear is different.
DMT
Couldn't agree more Dingus. 2 completely different fears.
Been in both situations myself too, and don't get me wrong... it's scary as all hell when you climb yourself into a dead end be it on a known route, or on unknown ground; you're bagged, pumped, and fried after an extended lead... Dry mouth sets in, panic, partched without water, frozen but sweating buckets... only to have to pull it together and use your noodle and every trick in your bag to figure it out...
All that said, there is no fear that drives a stone into the pit of your stomach like seeing your partner injured, missing, unable to respond, or worse.
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