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Anchors at the top of a route
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p8ntballsk8r


Jul 14, 2010, 3:49 PM
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Anchors at the top of a route
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I saw some guys last week placing quickdraws at the top of a sport route and top roping from them. They explained that using the anchors and carabiners as little as possible will allow them to last longer.

Is it true that when someone is going to TR after you that quickdraws should be placed and that the last climber should clean the quickdraws and lower off the carabiners up there?


redlude97


Jul 14, 2010, 3:52 PM
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p8ntballsk8r wrote:
I saw some guys last week placing quickdraws at the top of a sport route and top roping from them. They explained that using the anchors and carabiners as little as possible will allow them to last longer.

Is it true that when someone is going to TR after you that quickdraws should be placed and that the last climber should clean the quickdraws and lower off the carabiners up there?
Yes.


p8ntballsk8r


Jul 14, 2010, 3:59 PM
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For the placement of these quickdraws, I assume opposite/opposed gates and to clip them into the chains as close as possible to the bolts, is this correct as well?


brokesomeribs


Jul 14, 2010, 5:23 PM
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Re: [p8ntballsk8r] Anchors at the top of a route [In reply to]
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Opposite/opposed - yes. You could even put a locker on one of the quickdraws if you want to play it really safe or you'll have multiple people toproping before you clean.

As close to the bolts as possible - not sure it really makes a difference. I usually clip in at the very lowest link (the opposite of your question) because it minimizes the chance of the chain falling across the biner gate and opening it up.


lena_chita
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Jul 14, 2010, 5:59 PM
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p8ntballsk8r wrote:
For the placement of these quickdraws, I assume opposite/opposed gates and to clip them into the chains as close as possible to the bolts, is this correct as well?

The bolded part is not correct. The answer to that is IT DEPENDS (TM). A lot of times you don't have a choice b/c there aren't chains, there are just bolts with rap rings, or the chains have links that are too small to clip in, or one anchor is higher than the other and you can't easily equalize with the standard equipment you brought with you in a sport climb, or you are limited by how the gate of the draw would lie against the rock, either at the top or on the bottom, etc. etc.

If you do have a choice and ability to do so, clipping into the next-to-lowest link on a chain is nice because it allows the last person who would be doing toprope transfer more room to put the bight of the rope through the lowest rings, so cleaning would be marginally easier -- but it isn't really necessary.

Also, you should consider the length of your quickdraws vs. the distance between the two anchors. With standard 12inch legth quickdraws, if your anchor bolts are more than 12in apart, you would be creating a too-wide angle at the point where the two quickdraws come together, increasing the force on the anchors. So you would be better off clipping into the lower point on the chains and decreasing that angle (I won't waste my time explaining this to you. Just take my word for it, smaller angle is better.) Of course, you could just bring longer draws specifically for the anchor...


cornstateclimber


Jul 14, 2010, 6:28 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Anchors at the top of a route [In reply to]
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and lowering off the chains or anchors is a bad idea too because it wears out the anchor points or rap rings, which is why they are called rap rings, and not lowering rings. ive seen a many rings that were wore to almost nothing from this and top roping off them!


MS1


Jul 14, 2010, 7:43 PM
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cornstateclimber wrote:
and lowering off the chains or anchors is a bad idea too because it wears out the anchor points or rap rings, which is why they are called rap rings, and not lowering rings. ive seen a many rings that were wore to almost nothing from this and top roping off them!

Trying to get a flame war started in this thread? If so, strong work.


jt512


Jul 14, 2010, 9:15 PM
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cornstateclimber wrote:
and lowering off the chains or anchors is a bad idea too because it wears out the anchor points or rap rings, which is why they are called rap rings, and not lowering rings. ive seen a many rings that were wore to almost nothing from this and top roping off them!

I'm calling bullshit on that one.

Jay


socalclimber


Jul 15, 2010, 5:28 AM
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jt512 wrote:
cornstateclimber wrote:
and lowering off the chains or anchors is a bad idea too because it wears out the anchor points or rap rings, which is why they are called rap rings, and not lowering rings. ive seen a many rings that were wore to almost nothing from this and top roping off them!

I'm calling bullshit on that one.

Jay

Me too. I've seen plenty of worn hardware before, but never to that extent.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Jul 15, 2010, 5:29 AM)


billl7


Jul 15, 2010, 6:48 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
Also, you should consider the length of your quickdraws vs. the distance between the two anchors. With standard 12inch legth quickdraws, if your anchor bolts are more than 12in apart, you would be creating a too-wide angle at the point where the two quickdraws come together, increasing the force on the anchors.
When the rope is free hanging from the draws (edit: equalized draws), the largest effective angle possible is 90 degrees which is fine for a top rope application.

The only real drawback from this issue is the approximately horizontal run of rope between the draws ... adds a little extension if one leg somehow fails.

Bill L


(This post was edited by billl7 on Jul 15, 2010, 6:50 AM)


Partner j_ung


Jul 15, 2010, 8:08 AM
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Re: [cornstateclimber] Anchors at the top of a route [In reply to]
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cornstateclimber wrote:
and lowering off the chains or anchors is a bad idea too because it wears out the anchor points or rap rings, which is why they are called rap rings, and not lowering rings. ive seen a many rings that were wore to almost nothing from this and top roping off them!

I was about to start yet another thread about this to highlight a few points I wanted to make, and then I did a search. Go figure; it worked. Here's a thread from 2004, which I think covers everything I wanted to say pretty well. Rarely back then did i agree with much of what kalcario posted, but this is an exception. Yes, lowering certainly does cut through an anchor faster than rappelling, but if you think that's the only issue worth considering -- or the most important one for that matter -- I have to think your priorities might be a bit too rigid.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...20rappelling;#649090

The long and short of it is that IT DEPENDS. Sometimes lowering is better. Sometimes rappelling is better. All things being even, I'll take lowering for the simple reason that I can stay on belay the entire time. There may be circumstances to indicate rapping is the better option, but if my choices rank evenly, I will always pick my immediate safety over the lifespan of anchors.


climbingaggie03


Jul 15, 2010, 8:30 AM
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It does depend, but if posssible, I like to clip directly to the bolt hangers. Mostly because it's fewer things in the safety chain that can go wrong, but I think it also makes it a bit easier to clean.


USnavy


Jul 15, 2010, 8:02 PM
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jt512 wrote:
cornstateclimber wrote:
and lowering off the chains or anchors is a bad idea too because it wears out the anchor points or rap rings, which is why they are called rap rings, and not lowering rings. ive seen a many rings that were wore to almost nothing from this and top roping off them!

I'm calling bullshit on that one.

Jay
Yea, I have never seen a ring that is worn through as rings normally turn. However I have seen rap off chain worn 90%+ of the way through on the bottom most link.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Jul 15, 2010, 8:02 PM)


p8ntballsk8r


Jul 17, 2010, 9:39 PM
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lena_chita wrote:
p8ntballsk8r wrote:
For the placement of these quickdraws, I assume opposite/opposed gates and to clip them into the chains as close as possible to the bolts, is this correct as well?

The bolded part is not correct. The answer to that is IT DEPENDS (TM). A lot of times you don't have a choice b/c there aren't chains, there are just bolts with rap rings, or the chains have links that are too small to clip in, or one anchor is higher than the other and you can't easily equalize with the standard equipment you brought with you in a sport climb, or you are limited by how the gate of the draw would lie against the rock, either at the top or on the bottom, etc. etc.

If you do have a choice and ability to do so, clipping into the next-to-lowest link on a chain is nice because it allows the last person who would be doing toprope transfer more room to put the bight of the rope through the lowest rings, so cleaning would be marginally easier -- but it isn't really necessary.

Also, you should consider the length of your quickdraws vs. the distance between the two anchors. With standard 12inch legth quickdraws, if your anchor bolts are more than 12in apart, you would be creating a too-wide angle at the point where the two quickdraws come together, increasing the force on the anchors. So you would be better off clipping into the lower point on the chains and decreasing that angle (I won't waste my time explaining this to you. Just take my word for it, smaller angle is better.) Of course, you could just bring longer draws specifically for the anchor...

Smaller angle is better to reduce the american death triangle principal I would expect?


Partner j_ung


Jul 18, 2010, 8:43 AM
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Re: [p8ntballsk8r] Anchors at the top of a route [In reply to]
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p8ntballsk8r wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
p8ntballsk8r wrote:
For the placement of these quickdraws, I assume opposite/opposed gates and to clip them into the chains as close as possible to the bolts, is this correct as well?

The bolded part is not correct. The answer to that is IT DEPENDS (TM). A lot of times you don't have a choice b/c there aren't chains, there are just bolts with rap rings, or the chains have links that are too small to clip in, or one anchor is higher than the other and you can't easily equalize with the standard equipment you brought with you in a sport climb, or you are limited by how the gate of the draw would lie against the rock, either at the top or on the bottom, etc. etc.

If you do have a choice and ability to do so, clipping into the next-to-lowest link on a chain is nice because it allows the last person who would be doing toprope transfer more room to put the bight of the rope through the lowest rings, so cleaning would be marginally easier -- but it isn't really necessary.

Also, you should consider the length of your quickdraws vs. the distance between the two anchors. With standard 12inch legth quickdraws, if your anchor bolts are more than 12in apart, you would be creating a too-wide angle at the point where the two quickdraws come together, increasing the force on the anchors. So you would be better off clipping into the lower point on the chains and decreasing that angle (I won't waste my time explaining this to you. Just take my word for it, smaller angle is better.) Of course, you could just bring longer draws specifically for the anchor...

Smaller angle is better to reduce the american death triangle principal I would expect?

I spend precisely zero time worrying about this on a sport anchor. And if I believe the anchor is so bad that I do have to worry about it, I don't TR at all. I rappel and go climb something else.


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