We always make sure our top rope anchor is extended off the cliffs edge to protect the rope. But sometimes the master point is four or so feet down. My buddies just grab the webbing and guide themselves down untill they get tension from the anchor. Then they grab the brake end of the atc and start rappelling. I dont trust my strength in holding myself on just the webbing without having a hand on the break. I usually just walk down when I really wanted to rappel. What kind of protection should I use to get me down to the anchor so I can have tension to rappel down? I no of the firemans belay but I was thinking if I were in a situation to where I would have to go down first? Does anyone have the answer? I cant find it in my books or online?

We always make sure our top rope anchor is extended off the cliffs edge to protect the rope. But sometimes the master point is four or so feet down. My buddies just grab the webbing and guide themselves down untill they get tension from the anchor. Then they grab the brake end of the atc and start rappelling. I dont trust my strength in holding myself on just the webbing without having a hand on the break. I usually just walk down when I really wanted to rappel. What kind of protection should I use to get me down to the anchor so I can have tension to rappel down? I no of the firemans belay but I was thinking if I were in a situation to where I would have to go down first? Does anyone have the answer? I cant find it in my books or online?

just add a seperate anchor that would catch you if you did fall, a short static line. until your comfortable crawling over the edge! or a seperate rope to rap on

I disagree strenuously with your inference that one should become comfortable with lowering oneself over a cliff with no protection. And a loaded but untended abseil device is no protection.

If you just want protection so you don't die if you slip ...

Edit: if you're using something else besides an ATC as a rap device, this may not work ...

a) pull up the power point to a place where you are sitting safely;
b) thread your ATC for rappel;
c) tie off the ATC with a mule knot plus overhand and maybe biner the tail loop to something;
d) climb down until ATC is fully loaded with your weight;
e) carefully untie the overhand (remove biner first if any);
e) carefully but quickly release the mule knot (if properly done, the same stroke that releasts the knot leaves you in the braked off position for rappel);

Practice somewhere first where you life is not on the line. For example, the mule knot is easy to get wrong so 'e' doesn't work so smoothly.

Bill L

We always make sure our top rope anchor is extended off the cliffs edge to protect the rope. But sometimes the master point is four or so feet down. My buddies just grab the webbing and guide themselves down untill they get tension from the anchor. Then they grab the brake end of the atc and start rappelling. I dont trust my strength in holding myself on just the webbing without having a hand on the break. I usually just walk down when I really wanted to rappel. What kind of protection should I use to get me down to the anchor so I can have tension to rappel down? I no of the firemans belay but I was thinking if I were in a situation to where I would have to go down first? Does anyone have the answer? I cant find it in my books or online?

I think you're right to not trust holding your weight on one hand as the only thing between you and death.
What bill7 said is good.

How to deal with this varies from situation to situation. Sometime, you can rig a higher rappel.
If you are not the first down, make a conscious decision between using a rappel back-up (like an autoblock) or a fireman's belay. If you're first down, then the back-up is probably a good idea.

Make sure you pre-rig your rappel on the rope before going over the edge. Trying to rig/adjust/fix when you're already hanging in the air is _not_ a good way to go.

Can someone here please justify rappelling under these circumstances? Would love to hear a sane reason why one would bother and that would justify incurring the risks involved and the effort necessary to mitigate them.

Maybe I'm way out of line, but what's keeping you from tying in, and having somebody belay you as you scamble off the cliff's edge? Of course, they could then lower you to the ground. Then you don't gotta worry about shock-loading the slings, or other less than ideal situations... Or does that not work for some reason??

There are lots of ways for an experienced climber to do it, but 'quicker' is a lousy reason for doing it. Is that the best justification you can come up with to explain to beginners why someone would be doing this? And how many TR setups require a 'sketchy downclimb'? Sorry, I'd call both of those weak.

That would also work, as long as there is somebody on the ground ready to belay.

Actually, this recalls me of one of the first times I was in such a situation. I had toproped a route, leaving the TR anchor a meter or so below me. Downclimbing looked hard, so my belayer just shouted that I should jump off. Which I did. It's strange what you are happily willing to do when you don't realise the risks.

If I'm a-going toproping, and I know I'll have to eventually reach bolts over the edge of the cliff, I carry a short piece of static rope, fix it to a BFT (big fucking tree) and then rappel in on a Gri-gri to do the work. Once I'm done, I either climb back up and walk off or transfer the rappel onto the TR and continue down. I'm never in a position to load anything with much more than body weight.

Extra tidbits:
1. The length of static rope you need depends on the distance from the BFT to the bolt anchor. You need enough to to fix the rope to the tree and still be able to rappel below the completed TR anchor.
2. Since the static rope never reaches the ground, I also knot the end of it.
3. I use an autoblock to back up the rappel on the TR.

what's risky about falling from one meter above your anchor on (i'm assuming a full-length pitch) 30m of rope?

There are lots of ways for an experienced climber to do it, but 'quicker' is a lousy reason for doing it. Is that the best justification you can come up with to explain to beginners why someone would be doing this? And how many TR setups require a 'sketchy downclimb'? Sorry, I'd call both of those weak.

Im confused why you guys think rappelling in this situation is risky?

Hey, why don't we just not climb and walk up the cliff instead.

Its trivial to keep safe and secure. Be sensible and this is a non issue. I've rapped off top ropes plenty of times. It beats a 10 minute walk.

Can someone here please justify rappelling under these circumstances? Would love to hear a sane reason why one would bother and that would justify incurring the risks involved and the effort necessary to mitigate them.