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gmggg


Aug 19, 2010, 6:41 AM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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Oh, I forgot to include my info...

Climbing for ~10 (1-2 times a month) years "seriously" for 5(3-4 times a week).

Joined here very recently to find new partners in new lands.

I would estimate that my S/N is 45/65. I want to say 50/50, but I won't give myself the benefit of the doubt.


dingus


Aug 19, 2010, 7:40 AM
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Re: [jt512] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
LostinMaine wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I have one high-signal comment to make: High signal-to-noise ratios don't happen on their own. The signal strength has to be defended. It can be defended by management or it can be defended by popular consent. But neither of those things happens here to any significant degree. If you want a high SNR, you have to reduce the noise. You have to stop the repetitive questions, have a FAQ, insist that it be consulted, insist that answers be googled for before questions are asked, etc. This is what every web site I know of that has a high SNR does. But the culture here is a noise culture. Look at what happens whenever a long-time user asks a n00b who has started a shoe thread for the 100th time in a month, to do a search. Who gets attacked: the experienced user. You want a high SNR? Well, you can't have it while continually rewarding noise.

Jay

While this is true to some degree, there is a lot to be gained by closer to real-time discussion than an FAQ can provide. Models change, perspectives change, and the dynamics of a user group change. Each of these can turn a tired subject into a meaningful discussion.

Having said that, I tend to simply ignore clearly uneducated and poorly thought out questions all together. If someone really puts effort and thought into a "simple" question simply because it is outside of their typical realm of understanding, it is worth a genuine response. That, to me, is the advantage of a useful forum rather than an FAQ or static gear review.

Edited to add: I guess to use your point above, I'm arguing that a high SNR can happen by increasing the signals rather than reducing the noise.

No one is suggesting that a FAQ take the place of a forum. But the purpose of the forum should be to supplement the FAQ. It's not that hard: 1. Check the FAQ first. 2. Do a search. 3. Then, if your question still isn't completely answered, post the question.

I've answered thousands of programming questions for myself by doing searches and reading FAQs, only to seem the exact same question later posted by someone to a forum. In high-SNR forums, such questions are rejected, either by the moderator or the user base.

Jay

Over and over this forum has rejected your version of internet Utopia.

No one wants to live under your rule dude.

No one.

DMT


jt512


Aug 19, 2010, 7:42 AM
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Re: [dingus] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
LostinMaine wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I have one high-signal comment to make: High signal-to-noise ratios don't happen on their own. The signal strength has to be defended. It can be defended by management or it can be defended by popular consent. But neither of those things happens here to any significant degree. If you want a high SNR, you have to reduce the noise. You have to stop the repetitive questions, have a FAQ, insist that it be consulted, insist that answers be googled for before questions are asked, etc. This is what every web site I know of that has a high SNR does. But the culture here is a noise culture. Look at what happens whenever a long-time user asks a n00b who has started a shoe thread for the 100th time in a month, to do a search. Who gets attacked: the experienced user. You want a high SNR? Well, you can't have it while continually rewarding noise.

Jay

While this is true to some degree, there is a lot to be gained by closer to real-time discussion than an FAQ can provide. Models change, perspectives change, and the dynamics of a user group change. Each of these can turn a tired subject into a meaningful discussion.

Having said that, I tend to simply ignore clearly uneducated and poorly thought out questions all together. If someone really puts effort and thought into a "simple" question simply because it is outside of their typical realm of understanding, it is worth a genuine response. That, to me, is the advantage of a useful forum rather than an FAQ or static gear review.

Edited to add: I guess to use your point above, I'm arguing that a high SNR can happen by increasing the signals rather than reducing the noise.

No one is suggesting that a FAQ take the place of a forum. But the purpose of the forum should be to supplement the FAQ. It's not that hard: 1. Check the FAQ first. 2. Do a search. 3. Then, if your question still isn't completely answered, post the question.

I've answered thousands of programming questions for myself by doing searches and reading FAQs, only to seem the exact same question later posted by someone to a forum. In high-SNR forums, such questions are rejected, either by the moderator or the user base.

Jay

Over and over this forum has rejected your version of internet Utopia.

DMT

I've conceded that elsewhere. The majority of users here have gotten not only what they deserve, but what they actually prefer: garbage.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Aug 19, 2010, 7:44 AM)


dingus


Aug 19, 2010, 7:50 AM
Post #154 of 217 (4947 views)
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Re: Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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In the original vein, I have been climbing now (sheesh) 37 years.

I am not qualified to post authoritatively in the lab. I feel I have nothing to contribute there.

Further, I feel the vast majority and I mean like a super dee dooper majority, are also unqualified to post in the lab.

I would go so far as to say the reason I don't read the lab threads at all, including most all of Adatesman's work, in particular the 'steal a design' cam contest, is because of pedantic and argumentative posts from journeyman climbers who don't know what the fuck they are talking about.

Its a GEEK sub forum. Math geek, engineer geek, geek geek geek. There is very little content there of practical use to real climbers.

So turning the site upside down for the sake of 6 or so posters, is really really stupid. Make the lab a private club and let them go off geeking one another and leave the rest of the site to its own counsel.

DMT


dingus


Aug 19, 2010, 7:51 AM
Post #155 of 217 (4944 views)
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Re: [jt512] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
dingus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
LostinMaine wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I have one high-signal comment to make: High signal-to-noise ratios don't happen on their own. The signal strength has to be defended. It can be defended by management or it can be defended by popular consent. But neither of those things happens here to any significant degree. If you want a high SNR, you have to reduce the noise. You have to stop the repetitive questions, have a FAQ, insist that it be consulted, insist that answers be googled for before questions are asked, etc. This is what every web site I know of that has a high SNR does. But the culture here is a noise culture. Look at what happens whenever a long-time user asks a n00b who has started a shoe thread for the 100th time in a month, to do a search. Who gets attacked: the experienced user. You want a high SNR? Well, you can't have it while continually rewarding noise.

Jay

While this is true to some degree, there is a lot to be gained by closer to real-time discussion than an FAQ can provide. Models change, perspectives change, and the dynamics of a user group change. Each of these can turn a tired subject into a meaningful discussion.

Having said that, I tend to simply ignore clearly uneducated and poorly thought out questions all together. If someone really puts effort and thought into a "simple" question simply because it is outside of their typical realm of understanding, it is worth a genuine response. That, to me, is the advantage of a useful forum rather than an FAQ or static gear review.

Edited to add: I guess to use your point above, I'm arguing that a high SNR can happen by increasing the signals rather than reducing the noise.

No one is suggesting that a FAQ take the place of a forum. But the purpose of the forum should be to supplement the FAQ. It's not that hard: 1. Check the FAQ first. 2. Do a search. 3. Then, if your question still isn't completely answered, post the question.

I've answered thousands of programming questions for myself by doing searches and reading FAQs, only to seem the exact same question later posted by someone to a forum. In high-SNR forums, such questions are rejected, either by the moderator or the user base.

Jay

Over and over this forum has rejected your version of internet Utopia.

DMT

I've conceded that elsewhere. The majority of users here have gotten not only what they deserve, but what they actually prefer: garbage.

Jay

To complete your point, they (we) prefer garbage OVER YOUR VERSION OF UTOPIA.

DMT


blueeyedclimber


Aug 19, 2010, 7:56 AM
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Re: [dingus] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
Make the lab a private club and let them go off geeking one another and leave the rest of the site to its own counsel.

DMT

Laugh Oh, Dingus, you make me laugh!

new sig?


blueeyedclimber


Aug 19, 2010, 7:59 AM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
new sig?

Nope. I tried to add this but it was too long. I didn't want to get rid of my other 2. Fair game for anyone else.

Josh


dagibbs


Aug 19, 2010, 8:02 AM
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Re: [gmggg] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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gmggg wrote:
I would estimate that my S/N is 45/65. I want to say 50/50, but I won't give myself the benefit of the doubt.

Well, at least you're giving the site 110%!


(This post was edited by dagibbs on Aug 19, 2010, 8:02 AM)


jt512


Aug 19, 2010, 8:06 AM
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Re: [dingus] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
dingus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
LostinMaine wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I have one high-signal comment to make: High signal-to-noise ratios don't happen on their own. The signal strength has to be defended. It can be defended by management or it can be defended by popular consent. But neither of those things happens here to any significant degree. If you want a high SNR, you have to reduce the noise. You have to stop the repetitive questions, have a FAQ, insist that it be consulted, insist that answers be googled for before questions are asked, etc. This is what every web site I know of that has a high SNR does. But the culture here is a noise culture. Look at what happens whenever a long-time user asks a n00b who has started a shoe thread for the 100th time in a month, to do a search. Who gets attacked: the experienced user. You want a high SNR? Well, you can't have it while continually rewarding noise.

Jay

While this is true to some degree, there is a lot to be gained by closer to real-time discussion than an FAQ can provide. Models change, perspectives change, and the dynamics of a user group change. Each of these can turn a tired subject into a meaningful discussion.

Having said that, I tend to simply ignore clearly uneducated and poorly thought out questions all together. If someone really puts effort and thought into a "simple" question simply because it is outside of their typical realm of understanding, it is worth a genuine response. That, to me, is the advantage of a useful forum rather than an FAQ or static gear review.

Edited to add: I guess to use your point above, I'm arguing that a high SNR can happen by increasing the signals rather than reducing the noise.

No one is suggesting that a FAQ take the place of a forum. But the purpose of the forum should be to supplement the FAQ. It's not that hard: 1. Check the FAQ first. 2. Do a search. 3. Then, if your question still isn't completely answered, post the question.

I've answered thousands of programming questions for myself by doing searches and reading FAQs, only to seem the exact same question later posted by someone to a forum. In high-SNR forums, such questions are rejected, either by the moderator or the user base.

Jay

Over and over this forum has rejected your version of internet Utopia.

DMT

I've conceded that elsewhere. The majority of users here have gotten not only what they deserve, but what they actually prefer: garbage.

Jay

To complete your point, they (we) prefer garbage OVER YOUR VERSION OF UTOPIA.

DMT

No, the majority of users here simply prefer garbage of substance.


gmggg


Aug 19, 2010, 8:09 AM
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Re: [dagibbs] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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dagibbs wrote:
gmggg wrote:
I would estimate that my S/N is 45/65. I want to say 50/50, but I won't give myself the benefit of the doubt.

Well, at least you're giving the site 110%!

Don't give away my secrets! It took years to learn that trick from FOX.


dingus


Aug 19, 2010, 8:12 AM
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Re: [jt512] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
dingus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
dingus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
LostinMaine wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I have one high-signal comment to make: High signal-to-noise ratios don't happen on their own. The signal strength has to be defended. It can be defended by management or it can be defended by popular consent. But neither of those things happens here to any significant degree. If you want a high SNR, you have to reduce the noise. You have to stop the repetitive questions, have a FAQ, insist that it be consulted, insist that answers be googled for before questions are asked, etc. This is what every web site I know of that has a high SNR does. But the culture here is a noise culture. Look at what happens whenever a long-time user asks a n00b who has started a shoe thread for the 100th time in a month, to do a search. Who gets attacked: the experienced user. You want a high SNR? Well, you can't have it while continually rewarding noise.

Jay

While this is true to some degree, there is a lot to be gained by closer to real-time discussion than an FAQ can provide. Models change, perspectives change, and the dynamics of a user group change. Each of these can turn a tired subject into a meaningful discussion.

Having said that, I tend to simply ignore clearly uneducated and poorly thought out questions all together. If someone really puts effort and thought into a "simple" question simply because it is outside of their typical realm of understanding, it is worth a genuine response. That, to me, is the advantage of a useful forum rather than an FAQ or static gear review.

Edited to add: I guess to use your point above, I'm arguing that a high SNR can happen by increasing the signals rather than reducing the noise.

No one is suggesting that a FAQ take the place of a forum. But the purpose of the forum should be to supplement the FAQ. It's not that hard: 1. Check the FAQ first. 2. Do a search. 3. Then, if your question still isn't completely answered, post the question.

I've answered thousands of programming questions for myself by doing searches and reading FAQs, only to seem the exact same question later posted by someone to a forum. In high-SNR forums, such questions are rejected, either by the moderator or the user base.

Jay

Over and over this forum has rejected your version of internet Utopia.

DMT

I've conceded that elsewhere. The majority of users here have gotten not only what they deserve, but what they actually prefer: garbage.

Jay

To complete your point, they (we) prefer garbage OVER YOUR VERSION OF UTOPIA.

DMT

No, the majority of users here simply prefer garbage of substance.

OK they prefer the garbage of substance over your version of Utopia.

DMT


roughster


Aug 19, 2010, 8:14 AM
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Re: [jt512] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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Actively supporting and encouraging the high noise level by the management has been a longstanding tradition and they have done so often at the cost of those who actually were provide the majority of the signal.

I would say my signal to noise ratio is close to 90:10 if not better. Ironically enough, I am probably considered one of RC.coms "bad guys". Whatever. I check the site to monitor for pictures, topics, or questions about local areas pretty much exclusively.

There simply isn't anything else worth reading here and I have learned my lesson about contributing.


jt512


Aug 19, 2010, 8:25 AM
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Re: [dingus] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
dingus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
dingus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
LostinMaine wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I have one high-signal comment to make: High signal-to-noise ratios don't happen on their own. The signal strength has to be defended. It can be defended by management or it can be defended by popular consent. But neither of those things happens here to any significant degree. If you want a high SNR, you have to reduce the noise. You have to stop the repetitive questions, have a FAQ, insist that it be consulted, insist that answers be googled for before questions are asked, etc. This is what every web site I know of that has a high SNR does. But the culture here is a noise culture. Look at what happens whenever a long-time user asks a n00b who has started a shoe thread for the 100th time in a month, to do a search. Who gets attacked: the experienced user. You want a high SNR? Well, you can't have it while continually rewarding noise.

Jay

While this is true to some degree, there is a lot to be gained by closer to real-time discussion than an FAQ can provide. Models change, perspectives change, and the dynamics of a user group change. Each of these can turn a tired subject into a meaningful discussion.

Having said that, I tend to simply ignore clearly uneducated and poorly thought out questions all together. If someone really puts effort and thought into a "simple" question simply because it is outside of their typical realm of understanding, it is worth a genuine response. That, to me, is the advantage of a useful forum rather than an FAQ or static gear review.

Edited to add: I guess to use your point above, I'm arguing that a high SNR can happen by increasing the signals rather than reducing the noise.

No one is suggesting that a FAQ take the place of a forum. But the purpose of the forum should be to supplement the FAQ. It's not that hard: 1. Check the FAQ first. 2. Do a search. 3. Then, if your question still isn't completely answered, post the question.

I've answered thousands of programming questions for myself by doing searches and reading FAQs, only to seem the exact same question later posted by someone to a forum. In high-SNR forums, such questions are rejected, either by the moderator or the user base.

Jay

Over and over this forum has rejected your version of internet Utopia.

DMT

I've conceded that elsewhere. The majority of users here have gotten not only what they deserve, but what they actually prefer: garbage.

Jay

To complete your point, they (we) prefer garbage OVER YOUR VERSION OF UTOPIA.

DMT

No, the majority of users here simply prefer garbage of substance.

OK they prefer the garbage of substance over your version of Utopia.

DMT

Oops. Not where I'd have chosen to make a typo.

Jay


jt512


Aug 19, 2010, 8:29 AM
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Re: [roughster] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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roughster wrote:
Actively supporting and encouraging the high noise level by the management has been a longstanding tradition and they have done so often at the cost of those who actually were provide the majority of the signal.

No argument here.

In reply to:
I would say my signal to noise ratio is close to 90:10 if not better. Ironically enough, I am probably considered one of RC.coms "bad guys".

While I can't rival your 9:1 signal-to-noise ratio, it seems that in principle, Aaron, for once we have something in common.

Jay


olderic


Aug 19, 2010, 8:53 AM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
I apologize. After the recent drama, I should no to just ignore him.

Josh

You should KNOW to just say NO to responding to any of Jay's egotitical know-it-all self centered useless posts.


subantz


Aug 19, 2010, 8:58 AM
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Re: [jt512] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
I think what I am trying to say is, despite the noise, don't be discouraged from posting. I think someone else already said it. To increase ratio, increase the signal, not necessarily decrease the noise...

But it's the high amount of noise that discourages substantive posting. Just saying "increase the signal" isn't going to have any effect, since it ignores the very reason why the high-signal posts aren't being made. It's just an expression of wishful thinking.

Jay

And yet, you still post.

Meaning...?

I think you know exactly what I meant by that. Tongue

Josh

Well, thanks for the compliment, then. Yes, I'm still one of the few people to post substantive content to the site.

Jay

LIES ALL FUCKIN LIES


kachoong


Aug 19, 2010, 9:07 AM
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Re: [Toast_in_the_Machine] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
I think this thread started out great, and now has descended into the sewer.

What makes you say that? Since you were late to the thread and clearly read from the beginning, can you point to a post (even one of mine) that made you say "oh noz not again another great thread ruined"? I'm curious to know.

Threads are really like a bottle of milk, on the table with the lid left off.... sooner or later it's gonna go sour the longer you have the lid off and leave it on the table. No matter how much chocolate sauce or syrup you pour in it'll still end up tasting like crap.

Moral to the story... nature cannot be tamed!

I guess I'll add to the blather of this thread...

As pointed out by a lot of people so far, calculating signal/noise ratio for each person will depend on what they want from the site in general and each reason is legitimate. Only with time on the site will one know how and what filters to use to make their experience better and in line with what they want. As said earlier though, some users just like to flap their peacock feathers and responses are all that satisfy them... great for them...

For me, in the six years I've been on the site my content, input and amount of "give-a-crap" have all varied with time. You really need to separate completely "Campground" type topics from the noise because that's all it is and shouldn't count in the signal:noise ratio. I've been climbing since the early 90's and enjoy input into regular forums if I my experience would help. Sometimes it's just the experiences themselves that I'd rather share and also reading the stories of others.... and at other times I'd just rather log in and poop from the mouth.

I think when some users see the exact same topic and question appear repeatedly over the years it kind of gets stale. At the same time, I don't mind a new climber asking advice about a topic that obviously changes with time. "How should I fit my shoe" is very static with time and should be steered to the FAQ... but "What do people think of these Jet7 shoes?" is something worthwhile and time-dependent.

It's answers (of varying quality) that are the signal in a noise of responses.


atg200


Aug 19, 2010, 9:22 AM
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blueeyedclimber


Aug 19, 2010, 9:34 AM
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olderic wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
I apologize. After the recent drama, I should no to just ignore him.

Josh

You should KNOW to just say NO to responding to any of Jay's egotitical know-it-all self centered useless posts.

Is this where I should point out your misspelling of egotistical? Cool


olderic


Aug 19, 2010, 10:19 AM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
olderic wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
I apologize. After the recent drama, I should no to just ignore him.

Josh

You should KNOW to just say NO to responding to any of Jay's egotitical know-it-all self centered useless posts.

Is this where I should point out your misspelling of egotistical? Cool

I actually saw that just as I clicked the Post button (seeing it at all is a miracle as I am recovering from surgery for a detached retina) and considered going back and fixing it - but I am too lazy. But see my typos just make me look stupid. But yours - similar to the break vs. brake or the knot vs. not ones - can actually be interpreted in a clever way.


curt


Aug 19, 2010, 8:39 PM
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Re: [atg200] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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atg200 wrote:
Someone upthread mentioned mountain project as being a very moderated site. It is not - there really aren't any moderators. The very few threads that have been locked or deleted have been only when enough regular users have complained to the site owner.

Mountain project is a good example of a largely self-policing community, which works in my opinion because the community is much smaller and most people use their real names. It also helps that it is a route database with forums as a sideshow, as opposed to the rc.com model of forums with a poorly implemented routes database as a sideshow.

Hey Andrew,

I may have been the one who said that. Certainly that was my impression--sorry if it's incorrect. You raise another interesting thought though: perhaps anonymous posting should not be allowed?

Curt


jt512


Aug 19, 2010, 9:00 PM
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Re: [curt] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
perhaps anonymous posting should not be allowed?

It would be unenforceable, in practice. When signing up for an account, a new user could enter anything in the "Real Name" field. Any means that could be used to reliably verify the name would be excessive.

Jay


curt


Aug 19, 2010, 9:11 PM
Post #173 of 217 (4754 views)
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Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18273

Re: [jt512] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
curt wrote:
perhaps anonymous posting should not be allowed?

It would be unenforceable, in practice. When signing up for an account, a new user could enter anything in the "Real Name" field. Any means that could be used to reliably verify the name would be excessive.

Jay

What? I would only require a notarized birth certificate, finger prints, retina scan, blood sample and, of course a completed DISCO security application. Don't make this sound more complicated than it really is. Cool

Curt


socalclimber


Aug 19, 2010, 9:15 PM
Post #174 of 217 (4743 views)
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Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437

Re: [curt] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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Can't Post

curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
curt wrote:
perhaps anonymous posting should not be allowed?

It would be unenforceable, in practice. When signing up for an account, a new user could enter anything in the "Real Name" field. Any means that could be used to reliably verify the name would be excessive.

Jay

What? I would only require a notarized birth certificate, finger prints, retina scan, blood sample and, of course a completed DISCO security application. Don't make this sound more complicated than it really is. Cool

Curt

Curt, you forgot the painful tissue sample...


Partner macherry


Aug 19, 2010, 9:16 PM
Post #175 of 217 (4740 views)
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Registered: Sep 10, 2003
Posts: 15848

Re: [curt] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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Can't Post

curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
curt wrote:
perhaps anonymous posting should not be allowed?

It would be unenforceable, in practice. When signing up for an account, a new user could enter anything in the "Real Name" field. Any means that could be used to reliably verify the name would be excessive.

Jay

What? I would only require a notarized birth certificate, finger prints, retina scan, blood sample and, of course a completed DISCO security application. Don't make this sound more complicated than it really is. Cool

Curt

AARP card perhaps?

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