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qwert
Aug 21, 2010, 11:12 AM
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What knot do i best use for my top point when solo toproping?
Figure8 or clove hitch?
Some more explanation:
I tie the rope to a tree and rappel down. When i am over the edge, i fix the rope again (to the last bolt) so that it does not get loaded over the edge, thus preventing possible damage to the rope and vegegation.
So all the weight from me solo toproping is put onto this point (with the tree above it as a kind of backup).
so far i use a figure8 for it, since i figured that it should work, since it serves esentially the same purpose as it would when i use it to tie in, where it works just fine.
However the figure 8 is a bitch to untie, and this is a problem when i have to untie it from a climbing position if i have to top out, or if i placed it at an intermediate bolt ( for rope placement or such).
So would the clove hitch work for that too? much easier to untie, and it already gets used in a lot of high load situations and in anchors. Anyone knows something? What do you use?
qwert
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jaablink
Aug 21, 2010, 11:54 AM
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I do a similar setup. I have a main hard knot at the top and clove in below somewhere relative.From there I redirect the rope with gear as its called upon.
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scottek67
Aug 21, 2010, 11:55 AM
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good question. I use a figure 8 and agree can be a bitch to untie. I use a clove hitch for a temporary anchor point but I won't try to talk you out of it. I'm sure you will get other opinions here on that one.
That said why not try a bowline or a bowline on a bight? It's way easier to untie and "bomber" IMO.
http://www.2020site.org/.../bowlineonbight.html
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jbro_135
Aug 21, 2010, 12:31 PM
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if you have a fig 8 on your main anchor then what's the difference?
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LostinMaine
Aug 21, 2010, 12:54 PM
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I never used a rope solo like that before, but if I am envisioning it correctly, wouldn't a butterfly knot make sense in that application since you are looking for an in-line knot?
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acorneau
Aug 21, 2010, 12:58 PM
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I'd probably use a clove hitch or an alpine butterfly first, or an in-line figure 8 if those where not working (for some strange reason).
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ubu
Aug 21, 2010, 1:27 PM
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jbro_135 wrote: if you have a fig 8 on your main anchor then what's the difference?
The main 8 isn't being loaded in this scenario.
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the_climber
Aug 21, 2010, 2:04 PM
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Couple options to consider for ease of untying:
- As mentioned use a Fig8 higher in the system, then clove or Alpine butterfly lower
- Use a double Fig8 (ie double eared Fig8 as some call it) it's easier to untie most times
- Use a Bowline on a bight with a either a long tail or a check knot upnext to the main body of the knot
- Use a double bowline with either a Yosemite finish or a check knot (al la double fishermans) inside the loop (should be obvious where)
Of course all these can be combined with a clove hitch below.
My personal preference is to use either of the bowline options.
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qwert
Aug 21, 2010, 2:22 PM
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Ok, a few interesting suggestions so far. I have to (re)learn the bowline, and check out the butterfly, but they do all have one issue in common with the 8, that i forgot to mention in the first post:
they all do take up a lot of rope. And while i do have more than enough rope normally, this does introduce one problem (the clove hitch would avoid):
If i untie the knot while passing it (meaning that i continue to climb after the know, such as when topping out) i have a lot of slack in the rope above me, and if i should fall before i pass this slack through my ascender this could result in quite a hard fall if there is not much rope left (eg. the topping out situation).
And yes, i do use a figure eight for my topmost point. Since this is usually a tree somewhere in the flat area above the cliff, untying that is not a big issue. Also that knot gets only wheigted once (while rappeling down to the topmost bolt), whereas the know in the top bolt might sees quite a few falls.
qwert
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the_climber
Aug 21, 2010, 2:27 PM
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If you're worried about that why not either clip into the anchor the clove is on while you move the slack though the system, or clip directly into the clove hitch and pass your ascender above the clove first.
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billcoe_
Aug 21, 2010, 3:09 PM
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Lose some weight.
You're welcome.
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Rudmin
Aug 21, 2010, 3:39 PM
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Worst that happens is the clove hitch slips, and then you end up anchored to the tree.
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the_climber
Aug 21, 2010, 4:10 PM
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qwert wrote: the_climber wrote: If you're worried about that why not either clip into the anchor the clove is on while you move the slack though the system, or clip directly into the clove hitch and pass your ascender above the clove first. With the clove it would not be neccessary, since that would not produce much slack anyways (which is why i think about using it). Apart from that: If i hang into the gear, its not freeclimbing anymore  qwert
Not really, just means you climbed it in 2 pitches.
Now that we're on semantics... you're not leading on RS because.... 
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shockabuku
Aug 21, 2010, 4:16 PM
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I use a bowline. Usually I lower off of a tree to the route anchor, tie a bowline on a bight which gives two attachment points, roughly equalize them and clip both the anchor bolts.
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qwert
Aug 22, 2010, 8:17 AM
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the_climber wrote: qwert wrote: the_climber wrote: If you're worried about that why not either clip into the anchor the clove is on while you move the slack though the system, or clip directly into the clove hitch and pass your ascender above the clove first. With the clove it would not be neccessary, since that would not produce much slack anyways (which is why i think about using it). Apart from that: If i hang into the gear, its not freeclimbing anymore qwert Not really, just means you climbed it in 2 pitches.
In reply to: Now that we're on semantics... you're not leading on RS because....
Its even solo!
That is much more hardcore than leading!
qwert
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dingus
Aug 22, 2010, 3:08 PM
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I do this frequently - exactly as you describe. I most often use a fig 8 - a weighted and reweighted clove hitch is not easier to untie than a weighted and reweighted fig 8, imo.
If there are two bolts at the top of the route try a double fig 8 - definitely easier to untie.
Bowlines? I don't like using a bowline for that job - personal preference thing.
DMT
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KeitaroHoshi
Aug 24, 2010, 2:25 AM
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Use the 8.
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cornstateclimber
Aug 24, 2010, 2:35 AM
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i would maintain using the 8, and if your having alot of trouble untieing it while in climb,pumped out or whatever, try using an old carabiner slipped into the knot, and when you get to untying it, remove the biner and gives you just the right amount relief to get the knot undone easily, or more easier. works for me every time.
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Tootie
Aug 24, 2010, 3:09 AM
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I roped solo'd today an i always use a Figure8 tied to a tree or whatever it seems to do jst fine...
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shockabuku
Aug 25, 2010, 11:27 AM
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qwert wrote: shockabuku wrote: I use a bowline. Usually I lower off of a tree to the route anchor, tie a bowline on a bight which gives two attachment points, roughly equalize them and clip both the anchor bolts. Is a bowline on a bight safe in such a configuration? I remember that knot having quite a few issues, that make it unsafe quite fast if you are using it a bit different than the standart configuration. Also i am from germany, the land of single bolt anchors, so a knot with two legs is of no use to me  qwert
I have no reason to believe it's not safe and I've used it without issue quite a lot. After weighting it's easier to untie than an eight. What might not be clear is that I leave the upper attachment (that I rap to the route anchors from) fixed so I do have a backup but I've never noticed any slippage.
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tower_climber
Aug 25, 2010, 11:21 PM
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It sounds like what you're doing is essentially setting up a rebelay, rerigging a midoint in the rope to a bolt that sits below the lip. You're also trying to conserve rope and have a hitch that is somewhat easier to untie after repeated loading than a figure8. Sounds like the perfect application for a butterfly knot, as some have suggested. Comparatively little rope needed, fairly simple to untie after multiple falls and just generally a good midline rigging knot.
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patmay81
Aug 25, 2010, 11:49 PM
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I've never concerned myself with the rope over the edge issue on tope rope solo; but as I usually build a gear anchor (sometimes including a tree) and throw a master point over the route, I've never had to deal with this.
If this situation did ever arise, I would probably use an alpine butterfly. I know its one of the most over recommended knots, but I think it would work perfectly here.
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shockabuku
Aug 31, 2010, 6:34 PM
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I don't use it as an inline attachment so I wouldn't use the butterfly.
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