So, recently I took a nice lead fall and my poor belayer who hadn't tied themselves down was yanked up into the rock and got just a little banged up. Luckily for me, she held fast with her brake hand and kept me from decking. phew... So the obvious lesson there is to tie the belayer down to a tree/boulder/whatever especially when the climber is much bigger, as was the case in our situation.

so, fine, we got that...

Now my question has to do with this same situation, but on a multi-pitch climb, at a typical 2-ring belay station. There isn't a tree/boulder/whatever around to tie oneself to when belaying. If that same fall were to take place in that situation, the belayer would be yanked up into the anchor in what could be a violent collision of rings, carabiners, belay device, and hands. The situation is possibly made worse by the lack of stretch of the slings being used to tie the belayer to the rings. This seems like serious potential for belayer and climber injury.

How is safety achieved in this situation?

Thanks.

Place a piece or two below the anchor to absorb upward pull. (Be sure to attach those to the anchor, not the belayer.) If that simply isn't an option, you might extend the belayer well below the anchor to lessen the fall factor. In either case protect early and often.

if you a solid anchor, there is no point of belaying off your harness

if you a solid anchor, there is no point of belaying off your harness

Now my question has to do with this same situation, but on a multi-pitch climb, at a typical 2-ring belay station. There isn't a tree/boulder/whatever around to tie oneself to when belaying. If that same fall were to take place in that situation, the belayer would be yanked up into the anchor in what could be a violent collision of rings, carabiners, belay device, and hands. The situation is possibly made worse by the lack of stretch of the slings being used to tie the belayer to the rings. This seems like serious potential for belayer and climber injury.
Thanks.

Another option, mainly seen in Europe, is to put the belay device on the anchor. This way the force is fully transferred to the anchor instead of the belayer. This requires a bit of training in order to be able to give slack smoothly.

What is bad in general is if the leader's rope has been clipped to the belay anchor, in which case all the potentially nasty collisions mentioned can happen with even a small amount of belayer lifting.

Also, a Munter Hitch is the standard knot for belaying in this case.

rob.calm

The euro anchors seems like a good idea, but will it ever catch on here in north america.? I've been told that the bolts in some euro areas are placed in a vertical orientation rather than the normal horizontal placements in Canada.

I for one hope it never catches on. It dumbs down climbs and removes the commitment factor by making retreat from any point convenient. This loads up climbs with parties who aren't competent enough to build belay anchors and construct rap anchors, parties who either can't do the entire route or who may not even plan to do the entire route. It encourages almost everyone to set out in conditions that would otherwise dictate a lot more prudence.

All these parties will bail at their convenience, creating all kinds of traffic jams for anyone below.

Trad climbs should be protected from creeping sportification. It's not as if there is some terrible shortage of sport climbs.

As for the vertical bolt orientation in Europe, I think it is directly related to belaying off the anchor. If bolts are horizontally situated, the belay device has to be placed on a connecting sling, and then the device or munter biner flies up under load. With the vertically oriented bolts, the belay device can be clipped directly to the lower bolt and so will have a much shorter vertical travel when loaded by a fall.

Bad advice.

First of all - thank you everyone for your thoughts and comments on this thread. I'm still processing many of them... but in the meantime, I would like to specify: I'm thinking, in particular, of routes at Stone Mountain State Park, NC, USA. That's where I do the majority of my multi-pitch climbs.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/North_America/United_States/North_Carolina/Central/Stone_Mountain_State_Park/South_Face/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain_State_Park

So, this is mainly friction face climbing, no features to place pro below the belayer, and double ring belay stations everywhere. The routes at Stone can really expose the leader since oftentimes bolts or features to place pro are like 20 - 50 ft. apart. So wicked whippers are certainly possible in the case of a fall. It has taken me a while to become confident enough to climb here because of the far spaced protection.

Tangent: I see the typical double bolt/ring anchors most everywhere I climb in the region on sport or TR routes. Crowders Mountain, New River Gorge area... On Stone Mountain (the reason for asking the thread) routes are trad and sport mix - at least how we climb them.

I prefer to belay off my harness - gives softer catch than off anchor so my leader's top piece is less likely to blow.

Alright

you are standing on pitch 5 belaying your partner from below some 100 feet away, your gri gri is attached to your belay loop and a 200 pound rock just smacked your partner's head. he is not responding, he is bleeding and you are 200 meter above ground.

your harness is attached to two sling piece anchor and the gri gri is locked pulling your ass down like a modapucker.

how are you going to get off of this and HOW LONG WOULD IT TAKE YOU to get down to assess your partner's situation ?


Here is the image taking by a climbing n00b cross the canyon.

[IMG]http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7149/screenhunter03nov14.jpg[/IMG]

Alright

you are standing on pitch 5 belaying your partner from below some 100 feet away, your gri gri is attached to your belay loop and a 200 pound rock just smacked your partner's head. he is not responding, he is bleeding and you are 200 meter above ground.

your harness is attached to two sling piece anchor and the gri gri is locked pulling your ass down like a modapucker.

how are you going to get off of this and HOW LONG WOULD IT TAKE YOU to get down to assess your partner's situation ?


Here is the image taking by a climbing n00b cross the canyon.

[IMG]http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7149/screenhunter03nov14.jpg[/IMG]

I think many climbers still belay 2nds off thier harness like majid picture. Its almost always better to belay the 2nd from the anchor. for single ropes I ususally use a grigri.

I think many climbers still belay 2nds off thier harness like majid picture. Its almost always better to belay the 2nd from the anchor. for single ropes I ususally use a grigri.