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jayhawk70
Nov 15, 2010, 1:43 AM
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i am relatively new to trad. i have done some lead climbing with others and done alittle by myself. recently, i was doing some easy stuff at Sand rock, AL. i was mixing cams and nuts with slinging horns ie. i would double a sling over a decent horn then clip a biner through the ends and then clip my line through the biner. i have seen others do it. it makes sense to me and i feel it is secure but another climber made an under his breath comment and shook his head as if in dismay. he didnt stick around to elaborate. so.. slinging horns for protection? good bad ugly...?
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chadnsc
Nov 15, 2010, 1:56 AM
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Slinging horns or knobs when that's all you have (Needles SD comes to mind) is just fine as long as you're doing it right.
It sounds like that either you where slinging horns when there was other / better ways to protect your climbing OR you where slinging the natural pro incorrectly.
Based on your description on how you where slinging the horns I think it was a combination of both.
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shimanilami
Nov 15, 2010, 1:59 AM
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You must have been doing something else the guy didn't like. In my experience, if a route has horns, knobs, chickenheads, and the like, it's standard protocol to sling them.
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chadnsc
Nov 15, 2010, 2:06 AM
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Well to be fair it's standard protocol to sling horns and knobs where YOU climb.
I've climbed plenty of stuff that had horns and chicken heads that I wouldn't sling for pro (weak rock, or much better features that would take bomber gear).
Truth be told OP without seeing your climb, and the slung knobs and horns it's rather impossible to give an authoritative answer to your question.
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pendereki
Nov 15, 2010, 2:11 AM
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When I sling a horn, I try to clove hitch or in some way tie the sling to the horn. It sounds like you just draped the horn--I would have shook me head in dismay at that!
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Colinhoglund
Nov 15, 2010, 2:11 AM
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jayhawk70 wrote: i am relatively new to trad. i have done some lead climbing with others and done alittle by myself. recently, i was doing some easy stuff at Sand rock, AL. i was mixing cams and nuts with slinging horns ie. i would double a sling over a decent horn then clip a biner through the ends and then clip my line through the biner. i have seen others do it. it makes sense to me and i feel it is secure but another climber made an under his breath comment and shook his head as if in dismay. he didnt stick around to elaborate. so.. slinging horns for protection? good bad ugly...?
Slinging horns is either the mark of the n00b, or the very experienced. This is because the very experienced know when they can and CAN'T trust a slung horn, the intermediate realizes they don't know when to trust them (and therefore places other gear they KNOW will work), while the n00b doesn't when to not trust them.
Buddy probably made a comment about one of two things. 1 the feature you slung was crappy!!!! Or 2, there was an obvious piece of good gear within reach of your horn.
If you are to continue to sling horns (something I rarely do, usually theres other better gear around) make sure their solid features; no cracks, sharp edges to cut sling, not chossy etc. Extend to prevent upward lift. Don't girth hitch *especially with dynema* whenever possible (if you have to girth hitch to keep it there It's not that good anyways).
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bill413
Nov 15, 2010, 3:44 AM
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Some good stuff here.
Usually just draping a sling over a horn, or doubling it round a horn isn't terribly good - it's too likely to be lifted off when the rope moves up. It's (usually) much better to girth hitch them or slip-knot them to make sure the sling stays put.
Even if there's a place for a piece of pro nearby, it's a personal decision as to whether to place pro, sling the horn, or both. I've no problem with using natural pro - in fact, blindly plugging a cam when there's natural pro tends to make me shake my head.
Choose good pro, natural or man-made. Make sure that it will stay there when you move above it, when you clip your next piece, and especially if you fall. Have fun.
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aerili
Nov 15, 2010, 4:43 AM
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Sometimes big chickenheads or horns look bomber but have been known to break if the neck is relatively narrow enough (and depending on the rock type). After hearing that a climber had a moderately-sized chickenhead break off on desert granite before, I decided to try to go only for the beefiest possible features.
Unless the neck of the horn or chickenhead is large enough that your sling can completely encircle it with little slack, I would also recommend learning how to tie a slip knot and use that most of the time. Sometimes I also clip another sling off the slip-knotted sling so that there is less chance of the pro lifting up off the horn as you continue to climb above it.
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coastal_climber
Nov 15, 2010, 4:57 AM
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Sling it if its solid. Don't sling if theres better pro available. If the sling might lift off, be sure to weight it with an extra un-needed piece(s).
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jt512
Nov 15, 2010, 5:21 AM
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chadnsc wrote: Slinging horns or knobs when that's all you have (Needles SD comes to mind) is just fine as long as you're doing it right. It sounds like that either you where slinging horns when there was other / better ways to protect your climbing OR you where slinging the natural pro incorrectly.
You don't know what you're talking about. I'd sling a bomber horn over placing a piece at any opportunity. Natural, bombproof, multi-directional pro. What more could you want? Plus, you don't unnecessarily deplete your rack, saving pieces for when you might actually need them.
From the OP's description, it might have been preferable to girth hitch the knob, rather than to drape a doubled sling over it, but without seeing the situation, this is just speculation.
Edit: GUed on the girth hitch comment.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Nov 15, 2010, 5:23 AM)
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jt512
Nov 15, 2010, 5:29 AM
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Colinhoglund wrote: Or . . . there was an obvious piece of good gear within reach of your horn.
So bizarre, this idea of preferring a nut to good natural pro.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Nov 15, 2010, 5:29 AM)
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Colinhoglund
Nov 15, 2010, 5:37 AM
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jt512 wrote: Colinhoglund wrote: Or . . . there was an obvious piece of good gear within reach of your horn. So bizarre, this idea of preferring a nut to good natural pro. Jay
All depends on how good the nut is compared to the natural pro. Since a good nut is bomber, the horn would have to be TRUCK before I chose it over a nut. However, if the horn was way better, I'd use it. That don't happen too often where I climb though.
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jt512
Nov 15, 2010, 5:44 AM
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Colinhoglund wrote: jt512 wrote: Colinhoglund wrote: Or . . . there was an obvious piece of good gear within reach of your horn. So bizarre, this idea of preferring a nut to good natural pro. Jay All depends on how good the nut is compared to the natural pro. Since a good nut is bomber, the horn would have to be TRUCK before I chose it over a nut.
Well, a good horn is bomber, more than the best nut or cam. If the horns on your local rock are unreliable, then you should realize that that is a local phenomenon. The general rule is to prefer good natural pro over removable gear, for all the reasons I state in my above post, plus it is better style—after all, you are trying to trad climb, right?
Jay
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Colinhoglund
Nov 15, 2010, 5:54 AM
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True, however I spend almost all my time in either the rockies or squamish. In the rockies chances are the few horns we find are CHOSSY. If it's not part of the face, it's probably because it's crap. And I've yet to find a real good horn on a hard (for me) route in Squamish that I'd actually trust. If I were somewhere with good horns and threads, I'd change my opinion.
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shimanilami
Nov 15, 2010, 4:01 PM
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Colinhoglund wrote: Slinging horns is either the mark of the n00b, or the very experienced.
In that case, I'm screwed!
(This post was edited by shimanilami on Nov 15, 2010, 6:09 PM)
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chadnsc
Nov 15, 2010, 4:33 PM
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jt512 wrote: chadnsc wrote: Slinging horns or knobs when that's all you have (Needles SD comes to mind) is just fine as long as you're doing it right. It sounds like that either you where slinging horns when there was other / better ways to protect your climbing OR you where slinging the natural pro incorrectly. You don't know what you're talking about. I'd sling a bomber horn over placing a piece at any opportunity. Natural, bombproof, multi-directional pro. What more could you want? Plus, you don't unnecessarily deplete your rack, saving pieces for when you might actually need them. From the OP's description, it might have been preferable to girth hitch the knob, rather than to drape a doubled sling over it, but without seeing the situation, this is just speculation. Edit: GUed on the girth hitch comment. Jay
Thanks for repeating everying I've already said. 
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styndall
Nov 15, 2010, 4:43 PM
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Colinhoglund wrote: jt512 wrote: Colinhoglund wrote: Or . . . there was an obvious piece of good gear within reach of your horn. So bizarre, this idea of preferring a nut to good natural pro. Jay All depends on how good the nut is compared to the natural pro. Since a good nut is bomber, the horn would have to be TRUCK before I chose it over a nut. However, if the horn was way better, I'd use it. That don't happen too often where I climb though.
At Sandrock, the horns and natural pro are really, really good.
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Colinhoglund
Nov 15, 2010, 5:23 PM
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Then I would probably sling natural features there. But as I said, most of the rock where I climb is somewhat suspect, hence my opinion. My whole point is to try and give the OP food for thought that yes slinging works, but make sure you know what your doing.
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chadnsc
Nov 15, 2010, 6:11 PM
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That's probably because while Mikes' video makes a good point not to forget about using natural anchors he doesn't give any explanation or instruction how to actually create / use natural anchors.
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scotty1974
Nov 15, 2010, 6:49 PM
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jt512 wrote: chadnsc wrote: Slinging horns or knobs when that's all you have (Needles SD comes to mind) is just fine as long as you're doing it right. It sounds like that either you where slinging horns when there was other / better ways to protect your climbing OR you where slinging the natural pro incorrectly. You don't know what you're talking about. I'd sling a bomber horn over placing a piece at any opportunity. Natural, bombproof, multi-directional pro. What more could you want? Plus, you don't unnecessarily deplete your rack, saving pieces for when you might actually need them. From the OP's description, it might have been preferable to girth hitch the knob, rather than to drape a doubled sling over it, but without seeing the situation, this is just speculation. Edit: GUed on the girth hitch comment. Jay
Yeah that's pretty much exactly what I was going to say. In the flatirons without slung horns, chickenheads or slung runnels you be more run out than the usual 40+ feet.
The key really besides it being solid is making sure that it's either long enough or has features that allow it be slung without slipping off. That and a girth hitch as well aids in stability.
(This post was edited by scotty1974 on Nov 15, 2010, 7:12 PM)
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chadnsc
Nov 15, 2010, 7:26 PM
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If those are types of knobs and horns the OP was slinging then I would have to agree with you.
Thanks for posting up pictures of the are the OP was refering to, it helps a great deal.
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aerili
Nov 15, 2010, 7:49 PM
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brianinslc wrote: [image]http://www.mountainproject.com/images/75/18/106137518_large_599acb.jpg[/image] Wasteland belay anchor Cochise AZ...
This is exactly the kind of "moderately-sized" desert granite chickenhead that some southern Arizona climbers claimed they have seen break off. I have climbed Wasteland and would def try to find bigger chickenheads for my anchor. I know they are there!
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