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michael1245
Nov 23, 2010, 7:09 PM
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Hello, I'm new to this site.
I have some basic questions, but before you respond please note that I AM NOT using this information to go Top Rope Climbing. I am a beginer, and I DO NOT climb without a guide.
My question is, what are the basic knots in setting up a top rope system with a belay?
So, once my anchor is finished I would make an overhand knot to clip the carabineer in?
Next the rope to secure the belyaer would put through that carabineer (the anchor), I would tie to it with a bowline knot? Then, add the saftey knot to remaining rope (from the bowline knot)?
My next knot would be a double figure 8. That's for the rappel rope's carabineer to clip on.
The excess rope (after the figure 8) would be clipped to the belayer's harness, using a "clove hitch"?
Just want to practice these knots. Let me know if there are the correct knots. Climbing with a guide in a few weeks...will ask more questions, but will NOT ATTEMPT to climb without a Guide for a LONG TIME while I still learn. Thanks.
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michael1245
Nov 23, 2010, 7:11 PM
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here is a picture of what I was trying to explain...as you can see, I practice the set up with cord and non-climbing carabineers...just trying to commit it to memory.
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Top Rope Dia.JPG
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chadnsc
Nov 23, 2010, 7:25 PM
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Am I to assume from your description and photo that you are doing a top rope, top belay?
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Kartessa
Nov 23, 2010, 7:25 PM
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I don't really follow your diagram, but if you want to practice the knots, just check out http://www.animatedknots.com
There's even a climbing section, just for you.
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michael1245
Nov 23, 2010, 7:29 PM
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yep, I know animated knots.
well, the knots that I tied in the diagram...bowline, double-figure 8 loop, overhand, clove hitch. Am I missinig anything? Do I need a few more to practice (for purpose of commiting to memory)? diagram isn't important...I'm not using that to climb, I let my guide set that up. next time I'll take notice of what my guide does and work on commiting that particular set up to memory.
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michael1245
Nov 23, 2010, 7:30 PM
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chadnsc wrote: Am I to assume from your description and photo that you are doing a top rope, top belay?
yes, top-rope top belay.
how's the set up? am I using the right knots?
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michael1245
Nov 23, 2010, 7:39 PM
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kennoyce wrote: michael1245 wrote: here is a picture of what I was trying to explain...as you can see, I practice the set up with cord and non-climbing carabineers...just trying to commit it to memory. Sorry, but your diagram makes no sense. For a toprope, you will have an anchor with a carabiner (or two or more) hanging over the edge of the cliff. The rope that will be climbed on will be draped through this (or these) carabiners. The belayer doesn't need to be tied into the rope (though it is good to have a stopper not in the end of the rope so the belayer can't let the end of the rope slip through the belay device). The climber ties in to the other side of the rope draped through the anchor carabiners using either a retraced figure eight or a double bowline. I hope that this makes sense since I don't have a camera with me, and I don't have the time to draw a nice majid microsoft paint picture.
sort of, I think I understand. two points anchored. ropes meet, lock with a carabineer, rappel rope goes through there.
in my picture, the anchor would have been a tree...that's why I had a the double-fisherman. it was intended to be a rope around a tree.
so, for the rappel carabineer...the rope just goes through it, that's it? no hitch or anything?
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chadnsc
Nov 23, 2010, 7:48 PM
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michael1245 wrote: chadnsc wrote: Am I to assume from your description and photo that you are doing a top rope, top belay? yes, top-rope top belay. how's the set up? am I using the right knots?
I think you're using way too many knots when only a couple are needed, at least in my opinion.
Assuming that the climb under 30 meters and each anchor point is a tree then I would do the following using webbing:
Anchor points:
Water Knots
(You could also girth hitch each tree with a sling then clip your anchor line into each sling using a biner and a figure eight on a bight)
Mater point:
Doubled figure eight
I'd then find the middle of my rope, tie a figure eight on a bight in and clip it into my mater point with a locking biner. I'd then throw this end over the cliff edge and use this half of the rope as the rappel line.
The other half of my rope is the belay line and I would thread that through my belay device (for me it's a gri gri) and then climb than too into the master point.
As for the belayers anchor point I'd just clip into one of the anchor strands with some 7mm cord.
(This post was edited by chadnsc on Nov 23, 2010, 7:53 PM)
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kennoyce
Nov 23, 2010, 7:49 PM
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michael1245 wrote: chadnsc wrote: Am I to assume from your description and photo that you are doing a top rope, top belay? yes, top-rope top belay. how's the set up? am I using the right knots?
For a top belay, the belayer will most likely want to tie in but I still don't see how your setup would work. The most common setup for a top belay would be for the belayer to attach himself to the anchor with a clove hitch going to the anchor and either a retraced figure eight, or a double bowline to his harness. The rest of the rope (the rope coming out of the other side of the clove hitch) would go down to the climber who would tie in with either a retraced figure eight or a double bowline.
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michael1245
Nov 23, 2010, 7:54 PM
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chadnsc wrote: michael1245 wrote: chadnsc wrote: Am I to assume from your description and photo that you are doing a top rope, top belay? yes, top-rope top belay. how's the set up? am I using the right knots? I think you're using way too many knots when only a couple are needed, at least in my opinion. Assuming that the climb under 30 meters and each anchor point is a tree then I would do the following using webbing: Anchor points: Water Knots (You could also girth hitch each tree with a sling then clip your anchor line into each sling using a biner and a figure eight on a bight) Mater point: Doubled figure eight I'd then find the middle of my rope, tie a figure eight on a bight in and clip it into my mater point with a locking biner. I'd then throw this end over the cliff edge and use this half of the rope as the rappel line. The other half of my rope is the belay line and I would thread that through my belay device (for me it's a gri gri) and then climb than too into the master point. As for the belayers anchor point I'd just clip into one of the anchor strands with some 7mm cord.
okay, thanks for the input
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kennoyce
Nov 23, 2010, 7:55 PM
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michael1245 wrote: kennoyce wrote: michael1245 wrote: here is a picture of what I was trying to explain...as you can see, I practice the set up with cord and non-climbing carabineers...just trying to commit it to memory. Sorry, but your diagram makes no sense. For a toprope, you will have an anchor with a carabiner (or two or more) hanging over the edge of the cliff. The rope that will be climbed on will be draped through this (or these) carabiners. The belayer doesn't need to be tied into the rope (though it is good to have a stopper not in the end of the rope so the belayer can't let the end of the rope slip through the belay device). The climber ties in to the other side of the rope draped through the anchor carabiners using either a retraced figure eight or a double bowline. I hope that this makes sense since I don't have a camera with me, and I don't have the time to draw a nice majid microsoft paint picture. sort of, I think I understand. two points anchored. ropes meet, lock with a carabineer, rappel rope goes through there. in my picture, the anchor would have been a tree...that's why I had a the double-fisherman. it was intended to be a rope around a tree. so, for the rappel carabineer...the rope just goes through it, that's it? no hitch or anything?
The anchor portion of the diagram would be fine, a double fishermans knot is a great way to create a loop of rope or cord, it you were using webbing you would want to use a water knot.
For a toprope setup, the only knots you really need to practice would be a retraced figure eight, clove hitch, and either double fishermans knot or water knot depending on what you will be using as the anchor.
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chadnsc
Nov 23, 2010, 8:04 PM
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michael1245 wrote: okay, thanks for the input
You're welcome, I hope it was helpful.
I've been using this setup for the past seven years when doing top rope, top belay up here on the North Shore.
Just be sure that when doing top rope, top belay that you mind where your master point is in relation to the cliff edge and the belayer. Personally I like to situate the mast point four to five feet back from the cliff edge so that the belayer can sit about one foot down from the master point and the belay device. This way the belayer will have an easier time belaying and managing the rope.
Again this is just my personal opinion
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michael1245
Nov 23, 2010, 8:05 PM
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thanks, I will work on that water knot.
the diagram isn't important...I'm not actually using that.
but, if I knew how to do the whole set up it would be really cool. just to practice, practice, and practice until I'm qualified to actually use it.
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bearbreeder
Nov 23, 2010, 9:21 PM
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you're overcomplicating it
1. set up the anchor ... if its a tree just run a sling or webbing around it, if webbing use a water knot to close it ... i would just use a long sling, its easier .. tie that in an overhand or fig 8 for a focal point
2. put in locking carabiner on a focal point, clove hitch yrslef into the focal point .. you are of course tied in
3. but the other climber on belay with the ATC, preferably with a redirect
4. lower said climber to the bottom of the climb
5. climb
all you really need to know the fig 8 and a clove hitch ... the 2 most essential climbing knots (add a fishermans and yr set)
you could rap down but doesnt sound like yr at that point yet ... you could also set up a direct belay, but again thats for later ...etc ...
get someone to show you, its not something you want to screw up on
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michael1245
Nov 24, 2010, 3:08 PM
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thanks again for all the advice and tips.
so, I revised and put together another example and am again questioning the effectiveness of the set up.
I have two imaginary anchor points, carabineers are clipped in to them. First, a bowline knot with a saftey knot in the left anchor. Then, I loop the rope into the right anchor. it comes together with an overhand knot. from there, I tied a double figure 8 loop an attach a carabineer. the belay rope is through that, using an Italian hitch.
pic is attached. Please review, comments and suggestions are welcome! Again, this is NOT something I am using, just learning and practicing. I only climb with guides at this point but am in the process of learning.
edit...I used an Italian Hitch (not a Clove Hitch) for the belay, is that correct?
(This post was edited by michael1245 on Nov 24, 2010, 3:12 PM)
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kennoyce
Nov 24, 2010, 3:28 PM
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michael1245 wrote: thanks again for all the advice and tips. so, I revised and put together another example and am again questioning the effectiveness of the set up. I have two imaginary anchor points, carabineers are clipped in to them. First, a bowline knot with a saftey knot in the left anchor. Then, I loop the rope into the right anchor. it comes together with an overhand knot. from there, I tied a double figure 8 loop an attach a carabineer. the belay rope is through that, using an Italian hitch. pic is attached. Please review, comments and suggestions are welcome! Again, this is NOT something I am using, just learning and practicing. I only climb with guides at this point but am in the process of learning. edit...I used an Italian Hitch (not a Clove Hitch) for the belay, is that correct? 
You're making this overly complicated. Always remember KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid). Number one problem, the bowline is not a knot used in climbing. A very small minority uses the double bowline to tie in, but the single bowline is not used.
The way you attached to the two anchor points is extremely weird. Using a rope like in your setup, you should probably use a figure eight on a bight to the left biner, a clove hitch on the right biner, and then take the rope going between the two biners and put a overhand knot in the middle of it to form a masterpoint. This masterpoint is where the belayer will clip in.
The belayer then could use an italian hitch (aka munter hitch) to belay, but this will twist the ropes and is a major pain to use, so they should just use a standard belay device.
This is one possible method of many , but remember to keep it simple.
edit for clarity.
(This post was edited by kennoyce on Nov 24, 2010, 3:31 PM)
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michael1245
Nov 24, 2010, 3:39 PM
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That makes more sense. A lot more sense!
Figure 8 on a bight (left)
Clove Hitch (right)
Overhand in between
Okay, I'll see how it looks.
One thing I'm confused about is the belay rope. Do you just drape it through the carabineer? Is a hitch necessary? I'm not talking about the climber's tie-in...I mean, from the top going down. It's just draped through?
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kennoyce
Nov 24, 2010, 3:53 PM
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michael1245 wrote: That makes more sense. A lot more sense! Figure 8 on a bight (left) Clove Hitch (right) Overhand in between Okay, I'll see how it looks. One thing I'm confused about is the belay rope. Do you just drape it through the carabineer? Is a hitch necessary? I'm not talking about the climber's tie-in...I mean, from the top going down. It's just draped through?
This depends on how you will be belaying. If both the climber and the belayer are on the bottom of the cliff with the anchor at the top, the rope is just draped through the carabiner. If the belayer is at the top of the cliff there are several methods, these are the three most common.
1. The rope can be draped through the carabiner, in this case the carabiner is called a redirect, and the belayer would be below this biner facing the anchor.
2. The rope could be attached to the biner using a munter (italian) hitch (though I wouldn't advise it) or an autoblocking belay device like the method shown in your diagram, this is called belaying off of the anchor.
3. The third option would not have the rope going to the anchor at all. For this method, the belayer would be attached to the anchor and the belay rope would be attached directly to the belayers harness with either a munter hitch or a belay device.
Hope this helps clear this up somewhat.
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bill413
Nov 24, 2010, 3:57 PM
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1) The bowline is used in climbing.
Most frequently it is used to form a loop that is easy to adjust as to size while tying. An example of when this is helpful is when tying to a tree. Doing the figure 8 rethread is slower. However, the bowline is not a necessary knot, and I find tying it with the rope around nothing a bit of a pain.
2) The munter hitch does not necessarily twist the rope.
If you keep the entry & exit strands parallel to each other it induces no more twist than any other device.
The biner for it in the picture should be flipped around. The munter needs the wide end of the biner to be able to invert in order to transition between taking in, paying out, and catching a fall.
But, overall, I agree with ken's analysis.
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michael1245
Nov 24, 2010, 4:18 PM
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based on kennoyce's description. picture attached.
thoughts, suggestions? hoping for praise soon, but I'm patient, haha.
(This post was edited by michael1245 on Nov 24, 2010, 4:19 PM)
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kennoyce
Nov 24, 2010, 5:59 PM
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bill413 wrote: 1) The bowline is used in climbing. Most frequently it is used to form a loop that is easy to adjust as to size while tying. An example of when this is helpful is when tying to a tree. Doing the figure 8 rethread is slower. However, the bowline is not a necessary knot, and I find tying it with the rope around nothing a bit of a pain. 2) The munter hitch does not necessarily twist the rope. If you keep the entry & exit strands parallel to each other it induces no more twist than any other device. The biner for it in the picture should be flipped around. The munter needs the wide end of the biner to be able to invert in order to transition between taking in, paying out, and catching a fall. But, overall, I agree with ken's analysis.
You are correct, I shouldn't have said the bowline is never used in climbing but it truly is not a necessary knot. It can be difficult to determine if it has been tied correctly, so I wouldn't recommend using it, especially to a total noob.
As far as the munter goes, I haven't used them very many times (only a couple of times when I have either forgotten a belay device or one has been dropped by a partner on a multipitch), but the times I have used it, it has twisted the rope like crazy. I'll have to try it keeping the rope strands parallel to each other.
Thanks for the added input.
edit to fix cheesetit
(This post was edited by kennoyce on Nov 24, 2010, 6:03 PM)
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michael1245
Nov 24, 2010, 6:27 PM
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thanks for the review and solid info. I'll practice this set-up and commit it to memory. I'm climbing again with a guide in two weeks, so I'll be sure to ask more questions.
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acorneau
Nov 24, 2010, 6:53 PM
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bill413 wrote: 2) The munter hitch does not necessarily twist the rope. If you keep the entry & exit strands parallel to each other it induces no more twist than any other device.
+1 here.
I used a Münter hitch a couple of weeks ago with no twisting issues. Had a nice ledge with a double bolt anchor about chest high.
I cloved in to one bolt and adjusted so I could sit on the ledge. Cloved the second bolt with a droop of rope in the middle. Cloved a third locker in the droop as the master point and belayed with the Münter hitch right on that biner.
Three biners and the rope... Beauty through simplicity.
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