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USnavy
Nov 28, 2010, 8:45 AM
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So we all know the hardest sport line is rated 5.15b. But what about the hardest trad line? I never hear about the hardest trad lines, I guess once you hit mid 5.14 trad is pretty much off the table. I never even heard of 5.14d trad lines, do any even exist?
(This post was edited by USnavy on Nov 28, 2010, 9:37 AM)
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sp115
Nov 28, 2010, 1:14 PM
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Probably not rated as hard as anything mentioned above, but I still find this unbelievable: http://vimeo.com/6052030 (edit: specifically the climb that starts around the 53 second point)
(This post was edited by sp115 on Nov 28, 2010, 1:19 PM)
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yodadave
Nov 28, 2010, 1:15 PM
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i believe MaCloud seriously downgraded Pearsons route. Not that that doesn't mean it's still ridiculously hard.
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jaablink
Nov 28, 2010, 3:06 PM
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We have a few 14 trad lines and a few projects that should go harder here in the north east ,but i dont know about 15. How many true 5.15 routes are there in the world? Around here there is Cybernetics on the Cybernetics wall a sandbagged 13d. I think Brian Kim was the most recent to send this route. http://climbingnarc.com/...-on-cybernetic-513d/. There is also the Link, between Skeletal remains and the Zone also 13d that went down this year , Cody Sims FA http://vimeo.com/12057089?hd=1
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malcolm777b
Nov 28, 2010, 3:07 PM
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USnavy wrote: So we all know the hardest sport line is rated 5.15b. But what about the hardest trad line? I never hear about the hardest trad lines, I guess once you hit mid 5.14 trad is pretty much off the table. I never even heard of 5.14d trad lines, do any even exist? Are you asking if there are any gear protected lines that hard, or whether there are any traditional lines that hard? The top-down style definitely allows the line to be 'designed' with difficulty in mind, then rehearsed into submission. For a traditional line to be of the same difficulty, not only would it need to be a natural line, but it would be worked ground up on lead at the very least. Depending on who you ask, ethics may even require the rope to be pulled at each fall (no dogging). Also, consider that features that offer protection also usually offer an abundance of holds. That's something that high end (5.15) sport climbs don't have much of. We've all seen the Cobra Crack video a million times, but here's a video of a high end trad line in the Gunks: http://www.deadpointmag.com/...13d-trad-climb-gunks.
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irregularpanda
Nov 28, 2010, 5:35 PM
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malcolm777b wrote: USnavy wrote: So we all know the hardest sport line is rated 5.15b. But what about the hardest trad line? I never hear about the hardest trad lines, I guess once you hit mid 5.14 trad is pretty much off the table. I never even heard of 5.14d trad lines, do any even exist? Are you asking if there are any gear protected lines that hard, or whether there are any traditional lines that hard? The top-down style definitely allows the line to be 'designed' with difficulty in mind, then rehearsed into submission. For a traditional line to be of the same difficulty, not only would it need to be a natural line, but it would be worked ground up on lead at the very least. Depending on who you ask, ethics may even require the rope to be pulled at each fall (no dogging). Also, consider that features that offer protection also usually offer an abundance of holds. That's something that high end (5.15) sport climbs don't have much of. We've all seen the Cobra Crack video a million times, but here's a video of a high end trad line in the Gunks: http://www.deadpointmag.com/...13d-trad-climb-gunks. And here it is again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McHosr_98r0
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blueeyedclimber
Nov 28, 2010, 5:40 PM
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Is that on the other side of the big block that ends the Slime Wall? I think I walked by that this summer and looked at it, wondering how hard it was. Now I know. Cool vid. But, where's his helmet?! Josh
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hafilax
Nov 28, 2010, 6:37 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: Is that on the other side of the big block that ends the Slime Wall? I think I walked by that this summer and looked at it, wondering how hard it was. Now I know. Cool vid. But, where's his helmet?! Josh Did he place a tricam? Everyone knows that you can't climb hard and use tricams!
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devkrev
Nov 28, 2010, 7:13 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: Is that on the other side of the big block that ends the Slime Wall? I think I walked by that this summer and looked at it, wondering how hard it was. Now I know. Cool vid. But, where's his helmet?! Josh Its actually right of the Guide Wall, Dis/Dat Mantle, and Kernmantle are all on the front, pretty crazy something that hard was found in a place with so much traffic. I can't wait for the 5.14 extension to Frogshead.
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shoo
Nov 28, 2010, 7:33 PM
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I find it hard to call many of these climbs "trad." Don't get me wrong here. The climbers out there pulling those super hard lines deserve every bit of praise for taking on ridiculously difficult routes in the best ethical style possible. To me, trad implies onsight, or at least with minimal "working" of the route. These ultra hard lines require serious redpointing, with every move and placement memorized. I find it hard to differentiate sport and trad at this point as being all that different from sport without pre-hung draws. Most importantly, though, I don't think the distinction matters in the least for this kind of cutting edge climbing. They completed the routes in the only way reasonable without significantly changing the rock. That's a feat worth our attention, regardless of labels.
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bill413
Nov 28, 2010, 7:38 PM
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devkrev wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: Is that on the other side of the big block that ends the Slime Wall? I think I walked by that this summer and looked at it, wondering how hard it was. Now I know. Cool vid. But, where's his helmet?! Josh Its actually right of the Guide Wall, Dis/Dat Mantle, and Kernmantle are all on the front, pretty crazy something that hard was found in a place with so much traffic. I can't wait for the 5.14 extension to Frogshead. You haven't done it yet?
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jomagam
Nov 28, 2010, 9:01 PM
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shoo wrote: I find it hard to call many of these climbs "trad." Don't get me wrong here. The climbers out there pulling those super hard lines deserve every bit of praise for taking on ridiculously difficult routes in the best ethical style possible. To me, trad implies onsight, or at least with minimal "working" of the route. These ultra hard lines require serious redpointing, with every move and placement memorized. I find it hard to differentiate sport and trad at this point as being all that different from sport without pre-hung draws. Most importantly, though, I don't think the distinction matters in the least for this kind of cutting edge climbing. They completed the routes in the only way reasonable without significantly changing the rock. That's a feat worth our attention, regardless of labels. +1
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marc801
Nov 28, 2010, 9:05 PM
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shoo wrote: To me, trad implies onsight, or at least with minimal "working" of the route. You're incorrect, because....
shoo wrote: These ultra hard lines require serious redpointing, with every move and placement memorized. ...the same thing was done on lots of trad lines before they went free, at the lowly grades of 5.11 or easy 12. Some examples from that cornerstone of trad climbing, the Gunks: John Stannard did 40 attempts at Foops before getting the FFA. He worked even harder and longer to establish Persistence. John Bragg took a lot of attempts spread over a few weeks to get the FFA of Kansas City On Supercrack, Steve Wunsch fell so often on so many attempts the climb was originally called Wunsch Upon a Climb. They only took the exact gear they needed on these routes 'cause by then, every placement and move was memorized. There are other examples of trad climbs too numerous to list from all over the country at grads far below 5.14. This is nothing new in the trad world.
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dynosore
Nov 28, 2010, 9:16 PM
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shoo wrote: I find it hard to call many of these climbs "trad." Don't get me wrong here. The climbers out there pulling those super hard lines deserve every bit of praise for taking on ridiculously difficult routes in the best ethical style possible. To me, trad implies onsight, or at least with minimal "working" of the route. These ultra hard lines require serious redpointing, with every move and placement memorized. I find it hard to differentiate sport and trad at this point as being all that different from sport without pre-hung draws. Most importantly, though, I don't think the distinction matters in the least for this kind of cutting edge climbing. They completed the routes in the only way reasonable without significantly changing the rock. That's a feat worth our attention, regardless of labels. Very well put. If every piece is preplaced, how is it different than clipping bolts, as far as endurance goes? Ground up placing gear on lead meets my definition, ymmv.
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shoo
Nov 29, 2010, 12:06 AM
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From my perspective, I would also say that these accoplishments were questionably "trad," even though they were done on gear. Again, this does not diminish the magnitude of the accomplishment. The style is just as important as the line with regards to the trad label. Trad does not, in my opinion, simply mean on gear. My argument is merely semantics, but I feel it's an important distinction nonetheless.
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Raiden
Nov 29, 2010, 12:23 AM
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dynosore wrote: Very well put. If every piece is preplaced, how is it different than clipping bolts, as far as endurance goes? Ground up placing gear on lead meets my definition, ymmv. I agree with dynosore - if you place all gear ground up (which is what beth rodden did for her redpoint ascent on meltdown), that meets my definition of trad.
shoo wrote: To me, trad implies onsight, or at least with minimal "working" of the route. I've never understood this thought - how is it not trad if they place all their own gear on the ascent?? Why does it have to be onsight? How would you define it anyway, say, oh well you can only work it 6 times and then it doesn't count as trad? Sounds silly to me. Besides top-rope rehearsing some of these routes is the only safe, and feasible, way to do them.
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malcolm777b
Nov 29, 2010, 1:53 AM
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Raiden wrote: dynosore wrote: Very well put. If every piece is preplaced, how is it different than clipping bolts, as far as endurance goes? Ground up placing gear on lead meets my definition, ymmv. I agree with dynosore - if you place all gear ground up (which is what beth rodden did for her redpoint ascent on meltdown), that meets my definition of trad. shoo wrote: To me, trad implies onsight, or at least with minimal "working" of the route. I've never understood this thought - how is it not trad if they place all their own gear on the ascent?? Why does it have to be onsight? How would you define it anyway, say, oh well you can only work it 6 times and then it doesn't count as trad? Sounds silly to me. Besides top-rope rehearsing some of these routes is the only safe, and feasible, way to do them. Trad means 'traditional'. The traditional style of climbing is start at the bottom, and get to the top. It does not mean start at the top, check the gear, work the moves, rehearse it until it is wired, then get the redpoint. There's a term that has been proposed for that style of climbing: sprad. There's nothing wrong with that if that's what you're in to. In fact, at the top end of climbing, it's damn impressive and quite necessary if the numbers are going to keep going up. If you said to me, "let's go trad climbing", I would damn well expect that we're going to go pick a route, start at the bottom, and get to the top.
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jakedatc
Nov 29, 2010, 2:04 AM
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shoo wrote: From my perspective, I would also say that these accoplishments were questionably "trad," even though they were done on gear. Again, this does not diminish the magnitude of the accomplishment. The style is just as important as the line with regards to the trad label. Trad does not, in my opinion, simply mean on gear. My argument is merely semantics, but I feel it's an important distinction nonetheless. Dare you to go tell John stannard, Dick williams, Rich goldstone, etc that their gunks ascents weren't Trad :D they'd show your little noob ass the door. Trad for me ground up, placing your own gear (or clipping FA fixed pro ie pins, bolts put while on lead), no falls. I've never see anything about not working routes, falling, etc. for the OP finding .15 gear routes is going to be hard due to a) folks who can actually climb that hard and b)the limited routes that will take gear on lead while still being that hard.
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guangzhou
Nov 29, 2010, 3:50 AM
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malcolm777b wrote: Raiden wrote: dynosore wrote: Very well put. If every piece is preplaced, how is it different than clipping bolts, as far as endurance goes? Ground up placing gear on lead meets my definition, ymmv. I agree with dynosore - if you place all gear ground up (which is what beth rodden did for her redpoint ascent on meltdown), that meets my definition of trad. shoo wrote: To me, trad implies onsight, or at least with minimal "working" of the route. I've never understood this thought - how is it not trad if they place all their own gear on the ascent?? Why does it have to be onsight? How would you define it anyway, say, oh well you can only work it 6 times and then it doesn't count as trad? Sounds silly to me. Besides top-rope rehearsing some of these routes is the only safe, and feasible, way to do them. Trad means 'traditional'. The traditional style of climbing is start at the bottom, and get to the top. It does not mean start at the top, check the gear, work the moves, rehearse it until it is wired, then get the redpoint. There's a term that has been proposed for that style of climbing: sprad. There's nothing wrong with that if that's what you're in to. In fact, at the top end of climbing, it's damn impressive and quite necessary if the numbers are going to keep going up. If you said to me, "let's go trad climbing", I would damn well expect that we're going to go pick a route, start at the bottom, and get to the top. By your definition, we should should all be placing pitons or going back to the Leader Doesn't fall days of climbing. The Phoenix in Yosemite is hardly sport, yet it was red-pointed into first ascent. Lot of great trad lines were originally aid routes where climber freed them slowly after many worked attempts. Spad, I haven't bought into that term yet. Maybe I will one day. Bottom line, if you push yourself in climbing, you will fall eventually. People who claim it;s not trad of it's been red-pointed are making up excuses for not climbing harder or for being scared of falling on gear they placed. The Nose on El-cap is trad. Whether you aid it or free it. Eventually someone will onsight every single pitch I'm sure, until than, it's still a hard trad line. Many of todays trad lines were cleaned on rappel before they were lead. Had to be because the cracks were so filled with dirt or had vegetation growing from them that prevented climbing without doing so. Same is true in Yosmeite, it's just that the cracks were aid initial, the aid climbing cleaned the crack system.
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Raiden
Nov 29, 2010, 3:55 AM
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malcolm777b wrote: Trad means 'traditional'. The traditional style of climbing is start at the bottom, and get to the top. It does not mean start at the top, check the gear, work the moves, rehearse it until it is wired, then get the redpoint. There's a term that has been proposed for that style of climbing: sprad. There's nothing wrong with that if that's what you're in to. In fact, at the top end of climbing, it's damn impressive and quite necessary if the numbers are going to keep going up. If you said to me, "let's go trad climbing", I would damn well expect that we're going to go pick a route, start at the bottom, and get to the top. I see - it's just a technicality with the naming, doesn't bother me. Like you said it is necessary to keep pushing the grades. But also, if I said to you "let's go trad climbing" I don't think we'd be climbing a 14c
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guangzhou
Nov 29, 2010, 4:20 AM
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Raiden wrote: malcolm777b wrote: Trad means 'traditional'. The traditional style of climbing is start at the bottom, and get to the top. It does not mean start at the top, check the gear, work the moves, rehearse it until it is wired, then get the redpoint. There's a term that has been proposed for that style of climbing: sprad. There's nothing wrong with that if that's what you're in to. In fact, at the top end of climbing, it's damn impressive and quite necessary if the numbers are going to keep going up. If you said to me, "let's go trad climbing", I would damn well expect that we're going to go pick a route, start at the bottom, and get to the top. With this definition of trad, I can go to a sport climbing area and every route I on-sight becomes a trad line. After all, only the first person raps, cleans, and bolts. As for the time Spad, I don't see it much outside of your post. Head-pointing yes, but Spad, no.
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Raiden
Nov 29, 2010, 4:37 AM
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guangzhou wrote: With this definition of trad, I can go to a sport climbing area and every route I on-sight becomes a trad line. After all, only the first person raps, cleans, and bolts. As for the time Spad, I don't see it much outside of your post. Head-pointing yes, but Spad, no. It isn't "spad" it's "sprad", and it's not all that uncommon (do a google search ). Interesting article from R&I: http://www.rockandice.com/...ly-go-sprad-climbing I especially like some thoughts from some top climbers: Alex Honnold offered this: “No one climbs cutting-edge trad ground-up and onsight simply because, one, it’s a waste of time, versus dogging it and just getting it done. Two, you basically can’t onsight 5.14 trad since there are less than 15 of them in the world. The old-school definition of trad is dead. Or rather it has moved into the alpine and on to walls. The single-pitch stuff is basically sport climbing unless you make yourself do it ground up, and then that just begs the question, why bother?” Dean Potter says, “For sure, the hardest sends usually rely on some sort of ‘working it,’ but lots of ground-up climbing happens everywhere.” Sonnie Trotter says, “I’ve done heaps of new routes ground up in a traditional manner, so has our local hero Andrew Boyd, but they are not always ‘newsworthy,’ so I don’t spray about them. The fact is, the hardest climbs will always be done via a sport approach.” EDIT: P.S. malcolm777b had the term right, you just misquoted him.
(This post was edited by Raiden on Nov 29, 2010, 4:39 AM)
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Raiden
Nov 29, 2010, 4:48 AM
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malcolm777b wrote: Raiden wrote: But also, if I said to you "let's go trad climbing" I don't think we'd be climbing a 14c True. And the same could be said if we were going sport climbing. True. But would we be trying to onsight, onsight flash, flash, redpoint, headpoint, pinkpoint???? just kidding
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