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babysitting or chivalry, where's the line..?
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alpinelynx


Dec 23, 2002, 9:53 AM
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babysitting or chivalry, where's the line..?
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ever have this expirience.. You're out hiking or climbing with a dude and when it comes to a one move boulder on the trail or a sketchy section down a 4th class gully, the dude stops, turns and offers a hand, of course, right where you want to land and even MORE intelligently, standing where if you did bail, he'd be taking a mightily long trip.

I cannot tell a lie, this makes me so freakin' angry. I usually inform them politely that they need to get the hell out of my way. Does this happen to you? How do you respond? I wonder if I just look fragile or something.



climbchick


Dec 23, 2002, 10:12 AM
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happens to me all the time & I'll take a spot on a sketchy 4th class downclimb any time I can get it. I've even had someone spot me at the bottom of a short ice cliff with my crampons in a direct line with his forehead I figured if he wanted to voluntarily take that kind of risk, why not, maybe he'd even catch me if I fell off! As for people trying to help me over puddles . . well, I just say "I'm fine".


thomasribiere


Dec 23, 2002, 11:08 AM
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I respond chivalry! The day you gonna fall, you'll ask us to help you again...
Oh girls! So complicated.


amsam


Dec 23, 2002, 1:12 PM
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Yeah, it happens a lot, and it CAN be pretty flattering, even if it's unneccesary.

The thing that bothers me most is when they won't even let you try to do something "dangerous" on your own, they insist on helping you do something their way, which for me, is almost never the way I would have chosen to overcome the obstacle. And even when I say I'm fine, and would rather do it my way, they won't give up.

That's when I draw the line, and refuse to move until they get out of the way. Just don't be rude about it, and they will see what a strong, capable person you can be, and respect you even more.


charley


Dec 23, 2002, 1:34 PM
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What's wrong with strong,capable,and a little rude?


amsam


Dec 23, 2002, 2:08 PM
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You'll just gain a little more respect if you can be polite, that's all. Being rude isn't usually going to benefit you, even if it doesn't hurt, so why do it?


amsam


Dec 23, 2002, 2:39 PM
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Well, I'm not complaining about the politeness, like I said, I find it flattering, it's just when guys make it clear that they don't think I can do things on my own that I get fed up.

Your style seems fine, offering a hand, but not forcing it. It's the pushiness that I object to.


figure08


Dec 23, 2002, 6:53 PM
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I also thinks it's flattering as long as he's not pushy, though I don't think I've ever had a guy not let me do something on my own i I say I'm fine. I think they think it's cool if you do it on you own, they just want to let you know they're there just in case. I like that.


alpinelynx


Dec 23, 2002, 11:05 PM
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mtngeo, I see your point but I must agree with amsam. Sometimes the way down I see as easier for my skills/limits will be different than Schmoe Gallant's and that is what is more frustrating than thinking they are being sexist.

On the positive side of my gripe, I have friends that ask if I'm okay or need help and leave it up to me to take responsibility for myself.

I'm just whining anyways and the solution is to just say, "hey, no thanks, I'm alright,"
and move on.

What a more important complaint is - RUNNING BETA while trying to climb through a crux. I'm working to improve the way I say, "SHUT THE HELL UP" so it sounds nicer.

end whinefest.


atg200


Dec 24, 2002, 9:29 AM
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There is nothing wrong with shut the hell up. I say it to partners anytime. Chivalry ends when I'm above my gear.

I help anyone across 4th class sections that scared me, male or female. I also motor along ahead of male and female partners and get yelled at to come back on something that didn't scare me, but scared them. Sometimes I yelp for help from the chick carrying the heavy pack who is way out in front of me, but she usually just laughs at me and tells me i'm slow.

There is no sexism involved here - its just people either helping or being oblivious in general. Speak up.


Partner calamity_chk


Dec 25, 2002, 4:23 PM
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Honestly, I dont take it to be a sexist thing at all, and, like Yvette, I'll take a spot from anyone, any time that I get gripped. If I feel confident about the scrambling, then I'll usually just say that I'm fine and ask the person to move.

A little about myself and my scrambling habits, I'm incredibly short and not very strong as yet. As such, there are plenty of times when I'm honestly concerned about being able to step down, over, through something. During these times, I enjoy having a spot without having to sound wimpy by asking for one. IMHO, it's nice to have a partner who can tell when you're nervous and respond accordingly. Again, this is mostly influenced by the fact that I'm a stubborn PITA and will struggle for entirely too long before admitting that I cant make the move.

Another habit of mine is to climb until the absolute last possible second, which means that we're scrambling quickly to beat the sunset. I've had partners offer up hands, arm, and legs to facilitate otherwise impossible step-downs. Sure, I could have struggled through it, but the gesture was well-appreciated and didnt seem to be a big deal to either of us. We were in a hurry, and he didnt want to wait on my stubborn butt to figure out my "path of least resistance."

As for pushiness, well, most guys who know me seem oddly intimidated by me, so I'm not overly worried about that. I've honestly never had a problem with someone trying to force chivalry onto me. Then again, I think most people realize that they'd get a big, fat "go to hell" from me if I sensed anything remotely sexist.

Finally, when I'm climbing and my partner is doing the running beta thang, I just say his name in a really stern (mommy) voice. He knows the translation is "shut the hell up." Other partners who dont know me as well get a couple of nicer requests before I start being all-out rude. (Things like, "can that wait?" or i'll let myself fall, then look at the person and say, "i'd like to see if i can figure it out for myself") I've found that most climbers understand and respect the mental challenge of things and are really just trying to be helpful. If the most helpful thing that they can do is to shut up, let them know.

end rant,
amber

[ This Message was edited by: clymbr_chk on 2002-12-25 16:25 ]


swohletz


Dec 29, 2002, 10:14 PM
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If a guy offers to give me a hand or a spot, I'm thankful. Sometimes I accept and sometimes I refuse. As long as I feel like I have the option to say yes or no I'm fine. As for running beta, I'd rather get beta ONLY if I ask for it. Too much chatter makes me flustered and keeps me from focusing. I tend to give beta too often and am trying to curb it, as it is something that I don't like done to me......


iamthewallress


Jan 23, 2003, 11:54 AM
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This is without question one of the hardest issues that I face when climbing with my boyfriend...maybe even one of the hardest issues that we deal with in our relationship.

I climb because I get something very personally fulfilling out of taking care of myself. I often find that I have the richest (or at least the most emotionally manageable) experiences when climbing with peers, mentoring others, or climbing alone, because I know that I'm not likely to have a hand offered to me on the scarey fourth class.

With my boyfriend I have two issues...One is my 'tough woman' baggage...I have this political opposition to taking a hand from a guy when I don't absolutely need it. I want to come upon the scarey crux and have to lead it and not have some guy offering to take the lead. I want to set up the damn rappel and carry the ropes out.

But this issue is at odds with the fact that he is basically and elite climber who has the descents wired, will have the rope work completeted before I even remember what needs to be done, and that his leads several number grades harder than I do.

What I have come to realize is that if I can check my ego and need to be one in control at the gate at least some of the time, that I can learn a lot from him. (Although I stress some of the time here...) Basically, reality has it that any time I am climbing with him and am 'in control of everything' that it is an illusion, and he is sort of humoring me to allow me my own sense of accomplishment. (i.e. He ropes up and places gear swinging leads with me on a climb that he normally free-solos.) If I really want to feel like I was responsible in a major way for the logistics of my party's climb, I need to climb with peers.

I have found that when I am climbing with a guy who is legitimately my peer or someone who is looking to me for mentoring, then these chivalry issues rarely arise with the possible exception of the bigger dude carrying the heavier pack.

It's funny how with all of our modern baggage it can me more difficult to accept help than to do without.

[ This Message was edited by: iamthewallress on 2003-01-23 11:58 ]


rock_diva


Jan 23, 2003, 12:13 PM
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If they don't offer a hand, it doesn't bother me.

If they offer a hand OCCASIONALLY is does not bother me, but I think if it happened all the time I'd get a "I am WOMAN - and I can take care of myself" attitude.

I have the same feeling toward a guy opening a door for me. I like it - it's even special, if it's done on occasion. But not in excess!


alpinelynx


Jan 23, 2003, 8:16 PM
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Thanks Melissa, I agree my ego at times is what is gets in the way. I am usually the one to get bent out of shape when I'm climbing or hiking with folks whose abilities exceed mine. I've noticed that when I'm honest about my abilities, the situation develops differently than if I try to be something I'm not. BS usually gets me into trouble!

I should have been more clear at the beginning here too - when this type of situation arises, there are more dudes around who don't get offered the hand when I do.


nikegirl


Jan 26, 2003, 12:06 PM
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Lessee...

My concerns of being treated as a girl...or as an equal...

my experiences that I feel are memorable.
Accomplishment on my part.

* I won the heart of my partner/boyfriend...hauling big boxes thru the desert. No complaints outta me.
that meant a lot. I remember thinking...damn this is fu*&^(( hard...but, it's what I gotta do to enjoy the event.

I am incredibly night blind. This is not an excuse it's a fact. While scrambling down the beautiful "headstone" after sunset in Joshua Tree...I reminded hangerlessbolt of my blindness...
I have no depth perception. NONE. He was then aware and in tune from that point forth. At one point I looked right at him...took a step and He lunged out at me, grabbed me and pulled me to him.

He said, I looked like I was "well here I go down the hole"... unneffected by this gaping hole below me. Reality was...I had no concept of this. I scared the $#!& outta him. I would have ended at the bottom, if we hadn't communicated my NEEDs...as me. Not a girl, but ME.
He won my heart all the more right then.
I carry the rope. I find all this a lesson on learning.
He opens my car door. I unlock his...from the inside.
guess relationships are a bit more respectful, rather than just buddies, climbing.
I tend to not complain. It's self defeating.
Taquitz...kicked my butt!! That was a haul. And I've heard rrradam snivel of it's approach/ascent...it's all relative. I got a few snivels out by end of day. But, I'd do it again.


This is what I know.
only my experiences.

~T



feesh


Jan 26, 2003, 3:54 PM
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I don't mind a helping hand when it's useful, and I won't hesitate to ask for a hand when I need it. I do find, however, that guys tend to offer me a hand for the following reasons:
1) they're hitting on me
2) I'm a girl and therefore "need" help
3) they're being friendly.
Scrambling down a steep and winding trail at the end of an 8-hour hike with my knee injury flaring up, I was more than grateful to the guy who stayed behind to give me a hand (despite the fact that I could go faster by gritting my teeth and doing it without help).

Guys: before you offer a hand, stop & think about whether you would make the same offer to another guy. Would you accept help from another guy? From a girl?



jumpingrock


Jan 26, 2003, 6:31 PM
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I did think about it and I then I came to the conclusion that I will stop to help anybody regardless of sex over a place that my 6' legs got me with ease. Now of course this probably pisses off my male climbing partner as much as it would my female climbing partner but I am a nice guy and for the same reason that I apologize when somebody runs into me I will help somebody out while hiking.

Not Chivelry or Babysitting call it... Canadian.


leahmeryl


Jan 27, 2003, 3:49 PM
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Yesterday I was bouldering with a group of four guys (me being the only girl). When each of the guys climbed the route, the rest of us stood back and watched (it was indoors, over crashpads, not very high off the ground). As so as I started, two of the guys jumped onto the pad to spot me (on the same exact climb that the others didn't need a spot on!) When I flashed the route and jump down one of the guys was nice enough to "catch" me and cop a feel. I didn't say anything, I just walked away and moved on to a different route. Sort of wish I had said something.
It's nice when people are there to help you out - I get a lot out of some of the beta I hear whether solicited or not. But it's pretty sleazy when some one takes advantage of the situation.


katydid


Jan 27, 2003, 4:45 PM
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I find my elbow always seems to "accidentally" fly out in that sort of situation.

I have no cartilege in my left knee (repeated sports injuries = osteoarthritis), and guys who know that have offered to carry my pack on steep approaches. In a situation like that it's all pain management and no gender bias, and I don't take offence.

OTOH I'd rather fall on my ass scrambling than be offered unsolicited help -- although if I really needed help I'd probably ask for it. Taking a header (provided it's not a gonna-kill-ya one) is a good way to learn what not to do in the future.


k.


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