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kenr
Dec 7, 2010, 10:30 PM
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I've heard that it's usually smart to re-stack the rope when the same person is going to lead the next pitch. And if I've built an anchor using the climbing rope (instead of a cordelette), it could be a big hassle to re-build that in order get free rope to lead again another pitch in series.
I read in a book that a way to avoid both "re-" tasks is for both climbers to untie from the climbing rope, exchange with the other's rope end, and tie in again.
So Sharon and I tried that "switching ends" between pitches of a 5-pitch climb. Didn't seem to take much time. (We both use personal anchor "leashes" anyway, so we were attached to the anchor at all times.) Maybe it took less time than re-stacking the rope would - (surely less time than also rebuilding a rope anchor).
Is switching rope tie-in ends as a normal part of our climbing a Real Bad Idea -- or is there just some better way to approach it?
I've been away from climbing for lots and lots of years, just getting back into leading, so I'm reading newer books, re-asking some basic questions that probably seem obvious to other people.
Looking at some old forum threads I found some people who normally make rope anchors, but say that if they know in advance that one person is going to lead all the pitches, they prefer to use a cordelette rather than switch ends. But then don't they still have to take the time to re-stack the rope?
? Maybe I've been taking too seriously the supposed need for re-stacking before re-leading -- and I should learn to just flip the rope over -- and accept than in some percentage of cases there might be a tangle to deal with?
Or is there other approach to this I'm missing?
Ken
(This post was edited by kenr on Dec 7, 2010, 10:32 PM)
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clc
Dec 7, 2010, 11:13 PM
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Life will be easier if you do not use the lead rope in the anchor. Use a Cordelette or simular.
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blueeyedclimber
Dec 7, 2010, 11:23 PM
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kenr wrote: I've heard that it's usually smart to re-stack the rope when the same person is going to lead the next pitch. And if I've built an anchor using the climbing rope (instead of a cordelette), it could be a big hassle to re-build that in order get free rope to lead again another pitch in series. I read in a book that a way to avoid both "re-" tasks is for both climbers to untie from the climbing rope, exchange with the other's rope end, and tie in again. So Sharon and I tried that "switching ends" between pitches of a 5-pitch climb. Didn't seem to take much time. (We both use personal anchor "leashes" anyway, so we were attached to the anchor at all times.) Maybe it took less time than re-stacking the rope would - (surely less time than also rebuilding a rope anchor). Is switching rope tie-in ends as a normal part of our climbing a Real Bad Idea -- or is there just some better way to approach it? I've been away from climbing for lots and lots of years, just getting back into leading, so I'm reading newer books, re-asking some basic questions that probably seem obvious to other people. Looking at some old forum threads I found some people who normally make rope anchors, but say that if they know in advance that one person is going to lead all the pitches, they prefer to use a cordelette rather than switch ends. But then don't they still have to take the time to re-stack the rope? ? Maybe I've been taking too seriously the supposed need for re-stacking before re-leading -- and I should learn to just flip the rope over -- and accept than in some percentage of cases there might be a tangle to deal with? Or is there other approach to this I'm missing? Ken
I don't like it. It works but it adds an additional safety concern, and over the course of a climb I don't think it adds that much efficiency (if any). On shorter climbs, there is not really any benefit. On longer climbs, when efficiency is more important, you are more likely to be rushing, to be tired, hungry, or dehydrated. The last thing you want to be worrying about is your knot. To focus and refocus and check and double check, how many times on a multipitch? You tie it once on the ground and don't think about it until you are on top.
Generally I like whoever is following to restack the rope while the leader reorganizes gear. If the belay is on a ledge, restacking is super fast. If it's a hanging belay, I take the time to ensure that there are no tangles. I feel that can save headaches (and time) on the next pitch.
Josh
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sf
Dec 7, 2010, 11:26 PM
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When leading in blocks you can just scoop up the neatly stacked rope and flip it over. This technique assumes a stance sufficient to stack the rope in a tight bundle. At hanging belays flake the rope over your anchor points as the second climbs and then flip it in accordance with the same basic principle. Reflaking is slow and untying is both inefficient and potentially unsafe.
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j_ung
Dec 7, 2010, 11:29 PM
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kenr wrote: I've heard that it's usually smart to re-stack the rope when the same person is going to lead the next pitch. And if I've built an anchor using the climbing rope (instead of a cordelette), it could be a big hassle to re-build that in order get free rope to lead again another pitch in series. I read in a book that a way to avoid both "re-" tasks is for both climbers to untie from the climbing rope, exchange with the other's rope end, and tie in again.
It is a good idea to restack, however, if the leader-now-belayer keeps the rope tidy while bringing up the second, it's simply a matter of flipping the stack over, and viola.
I often build my anchors from the rope, sometimes even when leading in blocks. Here's what I do:
Let's say the rope anchor is a 2-loop figure 8, AKA bunny ears. I lead, I place my pieces, I tie my knot and I clip in. I'm anchored. I then belay my second (keeping the rope tidily folded over my lap).
When my second arrives, he grabs two of his own biners, clips them to the same pieces UNDER my anchor, and then ties his own bunny ears with his end of the rope. When I lead off, I dismantle my bunny ears, and I'm out of there.
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jmeizis
Dec 7, 2010, 11:30 PM
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Just flip it. The tangle issue is not that bad with a pancake flip, butterfly flips I have more trouble with. Don't untie though, that's asking for trouble.
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erisspirit
Dec 7, 2010, 11:40 PM
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j_ung wrote: kenr wrote: I've heard that it's usually smart to re-stack the rope when the same person is going to lead the next pitch. And if I've built an anchor using the climbing rope (instead of a cordelette), it could be a big hassle to re-build that in order get free rope to lead again another pitch in series. I read in a book that a way to avoid both "re-" tasks is for both climbers to untie from the climbing rope, exchange with the other's rope end, and tie in again. It is a good idea to restack, however, if the leader-now-belayer keeps the rope tidy while bringing up the second, it's simply a matter of flipping the stack over, and viola. I often build my anchors from the rope, sometimes even when leading in blocks. Here's what I do: Let's say the rope anchor is a 2-loop figure 8, AKA bunny ears. I lead, I place my pieces, I tie my knot and I clip in. I'm anchored. I then belay my second (keeping the rope tidily folded over my lap). When my second arrives, he grabs two of his own biners, clips them to the same pieces UNDER my anchor, and then ties his own bunny ears with his end of the rope. When I lead off, I dismantle my bunny ears, and I'm out of there.
I almost always just flip the stack over... less headaches when you just make sure the rope stays tidy in the first place. We will re-stack if we created some tangle in the process. Usually barring a mid-flip fumble, the leader is ready to go without all the fuss.
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shimanilami
Dec 8, 2010, 12:14 AM
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As others have said, untying isn't going to save much time and is potentially unsafe. And whether you build your anchor with the rope or a cordalette is personal preference. Neither is faster. (Although, IMO, a cordalette is easier.)
The real time saver is to stack the rope so that you don't have to mess with it before launching off on the next pitch. Restacking is a waste of time and a CF in the making. Some key points:
- First, you have to know who is leading the next pitch. If you get this wrong, you're screwed.
- Next, you have to stack it accordingly. If you're swapping leads, this should be simple (although I've seen it CF'd in a hundred different ways.) If you're leading in blocks, you can try the pancake stack (which requires a ledge), but IMO the best way is to drape the line through a sling with increasing lengths of "loop" with each pass. If you do this right, there will be no need to flip anything over, and there will be no opportunity for CF's to form. This takes practice, but it works.
(This post was edited by shimanilami on Dec 8, 2010, 12:17 AM)
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sp115
Dec 8, 2010, 1:49 AM
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kenr wrote: ...I read in a book that a way to avoid both "re-" tasks is for both climbers to untie from the climbing rope, exchange with the other's rope end, and tie in again. Ken
What "book" on climbing recommends this?
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socalclimber
Dec 8, 2010, 3:02 AM
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"When leading in blocks you can just scoop up the neatly stacked rope and flip it over."
This is what is known as "pancaking" the rope. Flip it like a pancake.
DO NOT UNTIE FROM THE ROPE!
This is the kind of advice that gets people killed. Learn your rope management skills and you won't have to untie.
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bearbreeder
Dec 8, 2010, 3:06 AM
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you should never untie from the rope unless something has went seriously wrong
if yr gonna block lead use a cord for the anchor and flop over the stack as others have said
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majid_sabet
Dec 8, 2010, 3:13 AM
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are you roommate with USNAVY ?
cause the type of questions you been asking lately are very similar to our navy commando
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yosemite26
Dec 8, 2010, 3:22 AM
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how bout if you just lead a pitch, and your now at a hanging belay, stack the rope over the rope that is between you and the anchor, this will keep it neat and tidy as your more or less stacking it on your lap. as the person following gets to you set up their anchor. once they feel secure and can belay simply pick up your coil of rope and toss it over the length of rope between them and their anchor. when you start leading the rope should feed out nice and smooth.
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billl7
Dec 8, 2010, 3:41 AM
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shimanilami wrote: ... drape the line through a sling with increasing lengths of "loop" with each pass. If you do this right, there will be no need to flip anything over, and there will be no opportunity for CF's to form. This takes practice, but it works.
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notapplicable
Dec 8, 2010, 5:49 AM
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Pffft! Go ahead and swap ends, you'll be fine. I untied from the rope once and look at me now!
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sp115
Dec 8, 2010, 12:26 PM
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Still waiting for Ken to provide a source that actually recommends this method of switching leads...
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patto
Dec 8, 2010, 2:05 PM
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There is nothing wrong with untying and switching ends. It is a useful tool in fast efficient climbing.
If you find tying a knot difficult then I would start questioning the rest of your anchor and gear. It certainly isn't slower if you do it properly. I regularly climb with 3s and I move damn fast up a cliff. Avoiding CFs is key.
The number one rule in fast climbing with multiple ropes is don't fuck with the rope stacks. If that means swapping ends the you do it.
(This post was edited by patto on Dec 8, 2010, 2:06 PM)
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notapplicable
Dec 8, 2010, 2:27 PM
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Oh lord, here we go...
I thought about making this^^ post, but then I remembered it was the beginners forum and thought better of it.
IMO, the tactics you employee entirely depend on who you are climbing with. I don't carry a cordelette, so the rope is almost always a critical part of the anchor, so I switch end when and if my partner doesn't want the next lead. The exceptions to that are if you are a new partner or a nOOb. And even then, it's more an issue of not wanting them breaking down the anchor without being firmly on belay, so in those cases, I bring a cordelette or extra slings for rigging the anchor.
Edited to add - What is crucially important is that swapping ends is the ONLY thing happening at that moment. You both do it together and watch each other the entire time. If conditions are such that this cannot be done, then use another method.
(This post was edited by notapplicable on Dec 8, 2010, 2:33 PM)
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sp115
Dec 8, 2010, 3:12 PM
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patto wrote: There is nothing wrong with untying and switching ends. It is a useful tool in fast efficient climbing. If you find tying a knot difficult then I would start questioning the rest of your anchor and gear. It certainly isn't slower if you do it properly. I regularly climb with 3s and I move damn fast up a cliff. Avoiding CFs is key. The number one rule in fast climbing with multiple ropes is don't fuck with the rope stacks. If that means swapping ends the you do it.
I'm not afraid of tying a knot, but how on earth is flipping the rope slower than both climbers un-tying and re-tying in? The focus for efficient rope management occurs while the second is climbing, not after they are on the anchor. Manage the rope as it comes in and there will be no issue.
I tell my second to take the first sling they come to when they are cleaning and loop it over their shoulder, bandolier style. All remaining gear gets clipped to the sling. When the second gets to the anchor, they secure themselves, typically clove-hitched with the rope.
They pass one sling filled with all the gear to me. I start re-racking and they flip the rope or re-flake (it depends on the situation: big ledge, or hanging belay). Both people working in parallel is pretty damned efficient.
Edit to add: I climb on doubles exclusively.
(This post was edited by sp115 on Dec 8, 2010, 3:13 PM)
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j_ung
Dec 8, 2010, 3:16 PM
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This is one of those things, like ALWAYS closing your toprope system, even when you're on a 50' climb with a 200' rope, that tends to get a little dogmatic. Though I prefer other methods, I certainly have untied at belay stations before for various reasons. As long as the team understands the, ahem, gravity of the situation and acts accordingly, I think it's a molehill, not a mountain.
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sp115
Dec 8, 2010, 3:53 PM
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j_ung wrote: sp115 wrote: Edit to add: I climb on doubles exclusively. I'd certainly call that a reason not to untie and re-tie.
I actually added that to emphasize that even if I had only one knot to deal with, I still think it's faster to manage the ropes and then flip.
But you know, I'm actually surpised to see that the last three posts all are from people who have swapped ends. I've just never done it, never heard it recommended, and never seen anyone do it.
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blueeyedclimber
Dec 8, 2010, 4:19 PM
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The only reason I have ever untied mid-route, was BECAUSE of poor rope management and a CF was created. I have probably only done it 2 or 3 times. Once again, as long as you are proactive about rope management, I think it's a bad idea to untie and retie as a habit.
Josh
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