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notapplicable


Dec 12, 2010, 10:07 PM
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I suggest you reinstate jt512's most recent S&F thread
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Seriously, you recycled the thread?

Attention was drawn to an issue, mods confirmed that it was infact an issue and the recycled post was reinstated. In short, the system worked.

And then someone went and recycled one of the rare S&F threads that actually produced a result. Treating the thread in question in that manner is only going to discourage the few of us who speak up when we see something wrong or think the site could be improved. You are discouraging the appropriate and intended use of this forum and, as a result, encouraging users to pursue these issues out in the forums at large. If you want us to respect the process of consolidating and working out our grievances in this forum, you also need to respect the process and it's results.


wonderwoman


Dec 13, 2010, 3:48 AM
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Re: [notapplicable] I suggest you reinstate jt512's most recent S&F thread [In reply to]
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Which thread was this?


mojomonkey


Dec 13, 2010, 5:14 AM
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Re: [wonderwoman] I suggest you reinstate jt512's most recent S&F thread [In reply to]
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wonderwoman wrote:
Which thread was this?

I'm guessing it was the thread started with this post, titled "Suggestions & feedback? OK, I suggest that moderators not be allowed to bury threads in the recycling bin to cover up their indiscretions". It now appears to be in the recycle bin as well :)

Some of it is cached here.


wonderwoman


Dec 13, 2010, 5:39 AM
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Re: [mojomonkey] I suggest you reinstate jt512's most recent S&F thread [In reply to]
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This may help explain why that thread disappeared:

""Gripe" threads about any action from a moderator including "Where did my post go?" posts will be removed. If you have questions about a moderator's action and they did not provide a reason for the intervention, please contact them via private message."

The original trip report was put back.


notapplicable


Dec 13, 2010, 5:41 AM
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Re: [mojomonkey] I suggest you reinstate jt512's most recent S&F thread [In reply to]
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mojomonkey wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
Which thread was this?

I'm guessing it was the thread started with this post, titled "Suggestions & feedback? OK, I suggest that moderators not be allowed to bury threads in the recycling bin to cover up their indiscretions". It now appears to be in the recycle bin as well :)

Some of it is cached here.

Yes, that is the one. Thanks.

This link contains the post by edge that lead to the resolution of the issue in question, in that thread.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/...mp;ct=clnk&gl=us


notapplicable


Dec 13, 2010, 5:59 AM
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Re: [wonderwoman] I suggest you reinstate jt512's most recent S&F thread [In reply to]
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wonderwoman wrote:
This may help explain why that thread disappeared:

""Gripe" threads about any action from a moderator including "Where did my post go?" posts will be removed. If you have questions about a moderator's action and they did not provide a reason for the intervention, please contact them via private message."

The original trip report was put back.

Although the OP may have been cantankerously phrased, that was far more than a "gripe" thread about a deleted post.

And it was specifically because jt512 posted in S&F that the thread was able to be restored.


edge wrote:
I was able to restore the initial post thanks to notapplicable's post which showed the original forum it was posted in. The follow up commentaries all remain in the Recycle Bin, and another mod has started a thread to discuss this in the Mods & Eds forum.


Edge also went on to ask that the pitchforks not be broken out, and they were not. The system worked because it was allowed to work. And then the thread was trashed.


mojomonkey


Dec 13, 2010, 6:39 AM
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Re: [wonderwoman] I suggest you reinstate jt512's most recent S&F thread [In reply to]
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wonderwoman wrote:
This may help explain why that thread disappeared:

""Gripe" threads about any action from a moderator including "Where did my post go?" posts will be removed. If you have questions about a moderator's action and they did not provide a reason for the intervention, please contact them via private message."

The original trip report was put back.

Not sure I'd call it a "gripe thread"... It was questioning a moderator action, and the result was that the moderator action was deemed inappropriate, even by the moderator involved. Per DDT's thread in this forum, this forum was the appropriate place to question the action. Not sure why it would be removed when it was resolved, the rest of the threads here hang out after they resolved for documentation purposes, I'd assume.


notapplicable


Dec 17, 2010, 9:08 AM
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Re: [mojomonkey] I suggest you reinstate jt512's most recent S&F thread [In reply to]
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*Ahem*


DDT wrote:
Here's my suggestion:
---------------------

1. OBJECTIVE: to facilitate civil conversation and/or debate about mod decisions, which could potentially lead to a modification or reversal of a mod action. The SPIRIT of the conversation/debate should be to allow constructive feedback from users, and transparency from mods. The ultimate GOAL is the long-term health of the Rockclimbing.com community.

2. The PROCESS -- A user has one of two options, depending on whether they want a private or public conversation/debate:
(a) Private: send a PM to any mod. That moderator or another moderator will respond in private via PM. A private debate/conversation can be converted to public at any time by the user who initiated it.
(b) Public: post a new thread with an appropriate title and a link to any relevant thread(s) in the Suggestions and Feedback forum.

3. Users can engage mods in a conversation about their actions only if they follow this defined process. Mods will, as a rule, not engage users in conversation about their actions if feedback is given outside this process.

4. Mods must respond to users feedback within a reasonable time, however users should keep in mind that mod actions are not decided or revised on the basis of majority vote or by popular demand. Users should expect that occasionally the mod feedback could terminate with something along the lines of "we cannot give more information because of user/privacy issues", or "we have discussed this thoroughly in the green room and made our decision. At this stage we have no more feedback or information to provide on the matter".

5. Final escalation: If a user's feedback is not addressed to their satisfaction, or is not answered in a timely fashion, that user has a final escalation option in the form of a PM to Phil Box, the head moderator, or myself. We endeavor to respond to all such PMs in a timely manner.

Let me know what you think. Please keep your responses on topic and relevant.

Thanks,
DDT


1. and 2. b are exactly what happened in the thread that this thread was created to address the disappearance of.

4. You guys haven't even made an effort on this one and it has certainly not been done to my satisfaction.

5. Is going to happen in 24 hours unless you guys make an effort to effectively communicate the reasons why the deleted thread did not fall within the intended use of this forum as laid out by DDT and why it was deleted. If it turns out that it was infact a moderation error, see below...

DDT wrote:
1. OBJECTIVE: to facilitate civil conversation and/or debate about mod decisions, which could potentially lead to a modification or reversal of a mod action.


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Dec 17, 2010, 1:03 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] I suggest you reinstate jt512's most recent S&F thread [In reply to]
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*Ahem*

notapplicable wrote:
*Ahem*


DDT wrote:
Here's my suggestion:
---------------------

1. OBJECTIVE: to facilitate civil conversation and/or debate about mod decisions, which could potentially lead to a modification or reversal of a mod action. The SPIRIT of the conversation/debate should be to allow constructive feedback from users, and transparency from mods. The ultimate GOAL is the long-term health of the Rockclimbing.com community.

2. The PROCESS -- A user has one of two options, depending on whether they want a private or public conversation/debate:
(a) Private: send a PM to any mod. That moderator or another moderator will respond in private via PM. A private debate/conversation can be converted to public at any time by the user who initiated it.
(b) Public: post a new thread with an appropriate title and a link to any relevant thread(s) in the Suggestions and Feedback forum.

3. Users can engage mods in a conversation about their actions only if they follow this defined process. Mods will, as a rule, not engage users in conversation about their actions if feedback is given outside this process.

4. Mods must respond to users feedback within a reasonable time, however users should keep in mind that mod actions are not decided or revised on the basis of majority vote or by popular demand. Users should expect that occasionally the mod feedback could terminate with something along the lines of "we cannot give more information because of user/privacy issues", or "we have discussed this thoroughly in the green room and made our decision. At this stage we have no more feedback or information to provide on the matter".

5. Final escalation: If a user's feedback is not addressed to their satisfaction, or is not answered in a timely fashion, that user has a final escalation option in the form of a PM to Phil Box, the head moderator, or myself. We endeavor to respond to all such PMs in a timely manner.

Let me know what you think. Please keep your responses on topic and relevant.

Thanks,
DDT


1. and 2. b are exactly what happened in the thread that this thread was created to address the disappearance of.

4. You guys haven't even made an effort on this one and it has certainly not been done to my satisfaction.

5. Is going to happen in 24 hours unless you guys make an effort to effectively communicate the reasons why the deleted thread did not fall within the intended use of this forum as laid out by DDT and why it was deleted. If it turns out that it was infact a moderation error, see below...

DDT wrote:
1. OBJECTIVE: to facilitate civil conversation and/or debate about mod decisions, which could potentially lead to a modification or reversal of a mod action.

Well I'm cromfuseded, I didn't realise that ddt had turned the S&F forum into a court room. Lemme check with him in case I missed the announcement.


notapplicable


Dec 17, 2010, 6:19 PM
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Re: [philbox] I suggest you reinstate jt512's most recent S&F thread [In reply to]
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Not asking for a courtroom mate, just a dialogue and a genuine effort on both sides to see this forum used for it's intended purpose.

I would also like to remind you and the vast majority of mods of what they said in the "Should posts be editable..." thread. Principally, that the editing and deleting of posts should be very restricted. Sometimes a post or three, or occasionally an entire thread, will need to be removed from the forums and I agree with that in both principle and practice. Only under the more extreme circumstances though and the thread in question was far from being one of those.

I realize it documented an unfortunate episode brought on by the actions of a moderator, but the thread in question was appropriate for and consistent with the forum in which it was posted and removing it was a pretty egregious example of superfluous thread deletion that borders on malice.

At least thats how it appears. Am I wrong? Why, exactly, was the thread removed?


notapplicable


Dec 17, 2010, 6:31 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] I suggest you reinstate jt512's most recent S&F thread [In reply to]
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A question for the mods. Why was the thread not locked after having served it's purpose? Thats what happens to other threads that have run their course and just turn in to a venue to bickering. What was different about this thread?


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Dec 17, 2010, 6:57 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] I suggest you reinstate jt512's most recent S&F thread [In reply to]
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Mods are not allowed to edit posts. If that has happened I want to know. Mods are expected and the users should also expect that posts may be removed from a thread and notice needs to be given that this has occured. The reason should also be given in the notice.


notapplicable


Dec 17, 2010, 7:35 PM
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Re: [philbox] I suggest you reinstate jt512's most recent S&F thread [In reply to]
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philbox wrote:
Mods are not allowed to edit posts. If that has happened I want to know. Mods are expected and the users should also expect that posts may be removed from a thread and notice needs to be given that this has occured. The reason should also be given in the notice.

Sorry if that was unclear. What I was trying to say is that the opinions expressed by the majority of mods in the "Should posts be editable..." thread (most mods seemed to agreed that the once a post is made, it is up there for better or worse) appear to be at odds with the seemingly random and superfluous removal of an entire thread here in S&F. A thread that was posted in the appropriate forum, that produced a desirable result and prompted an interesting conversation between jaablink and myself that relates to another thread here in S&F concerning the misuse of the 1-5 star rating system.

And to illustrate the point, here is what you said in that thread...

philbox wrote:
It irks me no end that users will come to us after the fact and ask us to wholesale delete their stuff. They invariably have been a twat and they aren't brave enough to stand behind what they have written. Think of the online world as you would publish a book and for that book then to be lodged in the library of congress. It's there for all time.

Wake up, get a clue and think before you hit the enter button. Same goes for users wanting to change their online username because they changed job or left University and they then think that what they have written will haunt them in their pursuit of a decent job. Might have been a good idea to think about that before you hit the enter button.


Once a post is made or a thread created, it should stand and should ONLY be removed if locking it or hiding a few posts is not sufficient to preserve it in a form appropriate for this site. The thread in question went from zero to deleted. Why will you not reinstate it and lock it?


caughtinside


Dec 17, 2010, 9:23 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
Am I wrong?

you're not wrong, you're just an asshole.


notapplicable


Dec 17, 2010, 10:14 PM
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caughtinside wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
Am I wrong?

you're not wrong, you're just an asshole.

Hardly a groundbreaking revelation.


notapplicable


Dec 17, 2010, 10:14 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
Am I wrong?

you're not wrong, you're just an asshole.

Hardly a groundbreaking revelation.

Oh, I see whats going on here.

Don't delete my thread Phil!


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Dec 17, 2010, 10:21 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
philbox wrote:
Mods are not allowed to edit posts. If that has happened I want to know. Mods are expected and the users should also expect that posts may be removed from a thread and notice needs to be given that this has occured. The reason should also be given in the notice.

Sorry if that was unclear. What I was trying to say is that the opinions expressed by the majority of mods in the "Should posts be editable..." thread (most mods seemed to agreed that the once a post is made, it is up there for better or worse) appear to be at odds with the seemingly random and superfluous removal of an entire thread here in S&F. A thread that was posted in the appropriate forum, that produced a desirable result and prompted an interesting conversation between jaablink and myself that relates to another thread here in S&F concerning the misuse of the 1-5 star rating system.

And to illustrate the point, here is what you said in that thread...

philbox wrote:
It irks me no end that users will come to us after the fact and ask us to wholesale delete their stuff. They invariably have been a twat and they aren't brave enough to stand behind what they have written. Think of the online world as you would publish a book and for that book then to be lodged in the library of congress. It's there for all time.

Wake up, get a clue and think before you hit the enter button. Same goes for users wanting to change their online username because they changed job or left University and they then think that what they have written will haunt them in their pursuit of a decent job. Might have been a good idea to think about that before you hit the enter button.


Once a post is made or a thread created, it should stand and should ONLY be removed if locking it or hiding a few posts is not sufficient to preserve it in a form appropriate for this site. The thread in question went from zero to deleted. Why will you not reinstate it and lock it?

I revisited the thread in the recycle bin and reckon there are no redemming features worth the effort of restoring that thread into this forum. Your post aside though. Pretty much a lot of the thread is personal attacks and ad hominem. Buttz Hurtzdedness galore in there.

If you feel strongly enough to start a thread with the essence of what was discussed then feel free. The thread in question is old history, let's leave it where it is.


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Dec 17, 2010, 10:23 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
Am I wrong?

you're not wrong, you're just an asshole.

Hardly a groundbreaking revelation.

Oh, I see whats going on here.

Don't delete my thread Phil!

I won't I promise. Edge, you wanna delete NA's thread. Only joking, had ya going though. Laugh


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Dec 17, 2010, 10:24 PM
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Suggestions and Feedback forum = the new campground forum for talking smack. Laugh


notapplicable


Dec 17, 2010, 11:00 PM
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philbox wrote:
I revisited the thread in the recycle bin and reckon there are no redemming features worth the effort of restoring that thread into this forum. Your post aside though. Pretty much a lot of the thread is personal attacks and ad hominem. Buttz Hurtzdedness galore in there.

If you feel strongly enough to start a thread with the essence of what was discussed then feel free. The thread in question is old history, let's leave it where it is.

No, I've said my peace and been given my answer. I'm not going to start another thread.

The last thing I will say is that having user participation in consolidating issues like that in the S&F is both logical and I have to assume makes the moderators jobs easier. That being the case, it would be nice if the mods avoided actions like the one in question, which pretty much negates any incentive the users have for participating in the process.

Thanks for discussing it and thanks for the answer, even though it's not the one I would have preferred.


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Dec 18, 2010, 11:43 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
philbox wrote:
I revisited the thread in the recycle bin and reckon there are no redemming features worth the effort of restoring that thread into this forum. Your post aside though. Pretty much a lot of the thread is personal attacks and ad hominem. Buttz Hurtzdedness galore in there.

If you feel strongly enough to start a thread with the essence of what was discussed then feel free. The thread in question is old history, let's leave it where it is.

No, I've said my peace and been given my answer. I'm not going to start another thread.

The last thing I will say is that having user participation in consolidating issues like that in the S&F is both logical and I have to assume makes the moderators jobs easier. That being the case, it would be nice if the mods avoided actions like the one in question, which pretty much negates any incentive the users have for participating in the process.

Thanks for discussing it and thanks for the answer, even though it's not the one I would have preferred.
Thank you for keeping the discussion civil and being very reasonable. The mods and I take notice of discussions like this and we certainly will take the issues that are raised in discussion threads like this very seriously. It has been a pleasure.


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Dec 20, 2010, 6:32 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
Seriously, you recycled the thread?

Attention was drawn to an issue, mods confirmed that it was infact an issue and the recycled post was reinstated. In short, the system worked.

And then someone went and recycled one of the rare S&F threads that actually produced a result. Treating the thread in question in that manner is only going to discourage the few of us who speak up when we see something wrong or think the site could be improved. You are discouraging the appropriate and intended use of this forum and, as a result, encouraging users to pursue these issues out in the forums at large. If you want us to respect the process of consolidating and working out our grievances in this forum, you also need to respect the process and it's results.

Looks to me like it turned into yet another referendum on jt512. I'd probably have recycled it, too.


notapplicable


Dec 20, 2010, 7:59 AM
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j_ung wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
Seriously, you recycled the thread?

Attention was drawn to an issue, mods confirmed that it was infact an issue and the recycled post was reinstated. In short, the system worked.

And then someone went and recycled one of the rare S&F threads that actually produced a result. Treating the thread in question in that manner is only going to discourage the few of us who speak up when we see something wrong or think the site could be improved. You are discouraging the appropriate and intended use of this forum and, as a result, encouraging users to pursue these issues out in the forums at large. If you want us to respect the process of consolidating and working out our grievances in this forum, you also need to respect the process and it's results.

Looks to me like it turned into yet another referendum on jt512. I'd probably have recycled it, too.

Up to the point that edge first posted to the thread, there had only been ONE post attacking jt512. He or another mod could have spoken up or locked the thread at any point and removed the posts subsequent to edge's.

Frankly though, I don't buy that as the reason for it being removed. Given how things unfolded, seeing as how no reason has actually been offered for why it was deleted (read philbox's responses carefully) and considering that the Anonymous post ratings: enough is enough thread is full of the same type of insulting posts, something doesn't fit.

The S&F system worked -- The community selfmoderated -- The thread was recycled

One of ^these^ things is not like the others...


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Dec 20, 2010, 12:09 PM
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Please take into account na that the mods are human too and on occasion make mistakes. The recycling may have been a mistake and it is past history, we learn through civil discussion which you exemplify by the way. We also discuss these issues privately in the secret squirrel green room forum.

I'm sure we'll all survive without the thread coming back here. Hopefully we have all learned something out of this. I do thank you for your input too. It has been refreshing to say the least.


notapplicable


Dec 20, 2010, 1:23 PM
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philbox wrote:
Please take into account na that the mods are human too and on occasion make mistakes. The recycling may have been a mistake and it is past history, we learn through civil discussion which you exemplify by the way. We also discuss these issues privately in the secret squirrel green room forum.

I'm sure we'll all survive without the thread coming back here. Hopefully we have all learned something out of this. I do thank you for your input too. It has been refreshing to say the least.

Absolutely, I just think their mistakes should be left up there like all the rest of ours. But as you say, the horse is dead so there is no need to carry on whipping it.

I hope you enjoy the holidays my good man. I personally will take the new year as an opportunity to star fresh and promise to find something entirely different to bitch about in 2011.



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