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sonso45
Sep 28, 2010, 8:37 PM
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The Concerned Climbers of Arizona has been formed to preserve climbing access and the climbing environment. We advocate for continued recreational access to climbing areas that are threatened by development or other forms of encroachment.
We are seeking to maintain the integrity of our federally protected recreational resources such as Oak Flat. It's been protected for a good reason, let's keep it that way.
The special interest legislation for a foreign mining company will result in the destruction of a federally protected recreational resource. This national precedent-setting legislation presents potential risk for any other "protected" recreational areas.
We seek to preserve maximum climbing in Arizona. Particularly important right now is keeping what we have created over many years, climbing and bouldering at Oak Flat's many different areas. The CCA advocates on behalf of the approximately 2,000 climbs that are at risk at Oak Flat. This potential massive loss in climbing is also unprecedented in scale for our nation.
We welcome and encourage your participation. We are open to all. Please feel free to join us at our next meeting in Boulders on Broadway!
When:
Tuesday October 12th, 2010 6PM
Where:
Boulders
530 W Broadway
Tempe, AZ 85281
For details see: www.concernedclimbers.com
Or 'join' us on facebook for updates.
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gblauer
Moderator
Sep 28, 2010, 9:43 PM
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Good luck Manny!
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lindajft
Sep 29, 2010, 2:51 AM
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I'll be there!
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K-Tanz
Sep 29, 2010, 3:06 AM
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You certainly have my support but if I may ask how is your organization different from the QCC?
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anthonymason
Sep 29, 2010, 3:58 AM
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Wish I could be there, but I will be out of town.
How is you're secret project going? PM me if you want to go climbin'
Thank you for you're hard work.
Anthony formally from AHS
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sonso45
Sep 29, 2010, 4:28 PM
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Hi Anthony, thought you moved out. I'm working on a book to the place, it's not much of a secret. Directions for it are easy to find.
Nov sounds like a great time; I'll be in Mexico end of Oct/early Nov.
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sonso45
Oct 3, 2010, 8:30 PM
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@ K-tanz: I think the biggest difference is that we are not interested in becoming a party to the destruction of Oak Flat. That precipitated the group split. Our concerns extend beyond dealing with RCM which is QCC's basic mission.
Come on down and meet us and anyone else interested in keeping access to our land open to climbers and others enjoying the scene.
Another difference between the groups is our focus on getting more folks involved. If you have a concern or want to learn more, come to the next meeting at the Boulders on Roosevelt and Broadway in Tempe October 12, 6 pm.
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sonso45
Oct 19, 2010, 10:04 PM
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One of the most disturbing things to me is some people's acceptance of RCM's proposed mining plan without demanding a look at alternatives. The big split in QCC came as a result of RCM refusal to consider any other option than panel caving, a form of block caving, that would ruin the surface of Oak Flat forever!
When I was in QCC, we sat in a meeting with David Salisbury and he stated the crater left over after mining operations cease would be the size of Meteor Crater in northern AZ. Now, they are saying it would be a minimal impact on the surface.
According to their estimates, the volume of "waste rock" would be 1.624 billion tons of rock with a volume a little over 0.6 cubic kilometer (using density of granite as 2.7 grams/cubic centimeter).
Over half a cubic kilometer of material will be pulled from underground. That is like six football fields in length, height and width.
Similar to the depth of the Black canyon or the face of the Diamond cubed! To say this will have minimal impact on the surface is a crime.
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lindajft
Oct 24, 2010, 2:47 PM
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Next meeting
Nov 10th 6pm @ Boulders in Tempe (Broadway, between Mill and Priest)
ALL ARE WELCOME!
(This post was edited by lindajft on Oct 24, 2010, 2:50 PM)
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lindajft
Nov 11, 2010, 4:04 AM
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meeting was canceled tonight, rescheduled for 6pm @ Boulders in Tempe Monday 11/15/10
apologies to anyone who showed tonight |
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lindajft
Dec 25, 2010, 4:13 PM
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NEXT MEETING
1/11/10 6pm @ Boulders in Tempe.
530 W Broadway Road
Tempe, AZ 85282
All are welcome!
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lindajft
Jan 7, 2011, 2:15 PM
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Reminder:
NEXT MEETING
1/11/10 6pm @ Boulders in Tempe.
530 W Broadway Road
Tempe, AZ 85282
All are welcome!
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pheenixx
Jan 11, 2011, 5:17 PM
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BUMP for the next meeting --Thanks CCA..!
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lindajft
Jan 12, 2011, 5:12 AM
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Glad to see those who showed.
Anyone is welcome at the meetings anytime!
btw climbing and bouldering @ Oak Flats/ Queen Creek this Saturday 1/15/11
Some of us will be there. It would be good to see others out there. 
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lindajft
Jan 17, 2011, 4:19 AM
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FYI
Next meeting @ Boulders in Tempe
6:30pm 2/1/10
EVERYONE IS WELCOME!
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lindajft
Jan 26, 2011, 2:09 PM
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We want to hear from climbers. All are welcome!
Come by and check us out at the next meeting:
2/1/11 6:30pm Boulders in Tempe
We are an OPEN group.
Linda
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lindajft
Feb 5, 2011, 8:47 PM
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FYI- great turn out at the last weeks meeting.
Really enjoyed the energy of everyone!
2/28/11 6:30PM BOULDERS
BRING YOUR IDEAS, ISSUES, QUESTIONS.... BRING IT ALL!
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lindajft
Mar 19, 2011, 3:07 PM
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Next Meeting: March 23rd, 2011, 6:30pm, Boulders on Broadway in Tempe
Some of the issues we'll talk about are:
What is the Cca mission?
Homestead access
Oak Flat Area
Community awareness and events
See you there.
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jbone
Mar 19, 2011, 5:59 PM
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Homestead is none of your business.
Don't fuck with the road, if you make it easier to access you will overcrowd the crag. There is insufficient parking for additional traffic not to mention the impact greater populations here will propagate.
Homestead was established with this in mind.
4x4 access preserves the integrity of Homestead.
You wanna be productive try to get access to The Drip, which is located nearby Homestead has 2wd access, much better parking and access has significantly less impact than the Homestead does.
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lindajft
Mar 20, 2011, 12:39 AM
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Maybe you'll show at the next meeting
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jbone
Mar 20, 2011, 2:09 AM
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Fundamentally, I will not be a part of any group or organization that would have me as a member.
How many bolts and hangers do you think I am responsible for at the Homestead?? Where were you when I was establishing the area back in the late 90's? Don't make me regret putting in all the effort I did establishing trails so you could repeat my lines.
If your group wants to establish an area, go find your own.
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gecko4
Mar 21, 2011, 12:25 AM
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jbone wrote: Homestead is none of your business. Don't fuck with the road, if you make it easier to access you will overcrowd the crag. There is insufficient parking for additional traffic not to mention the impact greater populations here will propagate. Homestead was established with this in mind. 4x4 access preserves the integrity of Homestead. You wanna be productive try to get access to The Drip, which is located nearby Homestead has 2wd access, much better parking and access has significantly less impact than the Homestead does.
JBone,
Well, as memory serves, I and some other climbers were there before you and we were putting in routes before you showed up. I'm also pretty sure, based on my discussions with others since then, that there were others there before me so I don't and never really have made any sort of claims on how the area "was established." I don't recall that you asked my permission to develop anything when you showed up and I don't recall imposing any of my own visions of how things should be done (save for asking one of your crew not to bolt a climb on the huge tufa sticking out on the Finland wall for fear of destroying the unique feature. He's a pretty good guy, but I remember his response of "well, if you don't bolt it then somebody will" still makes me chuckle and shake my head to this day.)
I had pretty good maps at the time and they indicated that the land was a checkerboard of State Trust (please have a permit), BLM, private, and more BLM (most of the crags are on public land, though you bolted on private land at the Welcome Wall and some other spots . . . ) Not that this necessarily impacts anything, but the fact remains, it's mostly public land; I, you, and many, many others have put up routes out there (a testament to the true community spirit of how a crag can develop over time).
So, in a way I understand your sense of ownership and what kind of comes off as an angry territorial tone.
However, we realized that day when you and your friends entered the canyon in a whirlwind of whooping and hollering, flying dust, debris, and flora, industrial crag and trail development (a carved out trail on private land no less), that we had to accept the reality of what the majority of the place is, public lands and we had no real right to make any sort of proclamations about how the place was "established." We made some rather humble attempts at discussions about private lands, State lands, ranchers, etc., but the energy at the time didn't seem to point in that sort of predominant direction, or so it seemed. There was more an air of "develop baby, develop" sort of thing going.
Anyway, water under the bridge, bygones, back in the day BS sort of things, at this point, some of us, and you're welcome to join even in a tangential manner if you'd like, recognize that presenting ourselves as proactive and presumptive stewards for the area are attempting to make what can be a poor situation better for the long term.
Of course, this is just my view and I recognize that your view is shared by some. Just be aware that the road in question and our attempts to address the situation do not imply a drastic change, though eventually one could certainly envision certain positive access changes in the future. You have played a big part in making the situation what it is, with your route development and other helpful activities with respect to the place. You've had a hand in making the place really great for climbing and along with this comes the easily had realization that others will follow in droves. It's a common occurrence for crags as they develop.
Again, I think I get your feeling of ownership, the place on a quiet day really is amazing. Of course it was a lot quieter back in the day when nobody but me and a friend or two were out there. However, those days are gone and my personal preference is that we should all realize that the public lands out there are ours and not just mine, or yours, and work together accordingly.
Just my thoughts of course.
Fred
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jbone
Mar 21, 2011, 4:39 AM
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Whoa now Fred!
You talk like you showed me the area and I came along after you had.. Truth is, We both started the exact same time.
You never gave me beta on the area or showed me anything, if anything your interest was peaked in the area because of my efforts in El Cap Canyon the 3 years before anyone started climbing at Homestead.
The first day we ran into each other at the Homestead was actually my 3rd trip into the canyon. The first day I entered the canyon you had not even started any development yet.
When we started climbing Homestead we never publicized it to anyone other than our own circles. After 4 years of development we posted the information here at RC.com. For nearly a decade the Homestead has been preserved in this state and I personally attribute that to the 4x4 access.
So Fred?
How would you address the parking area when more than a dozen vehicles are parked at the access fork that the trails into the canyon start at?
How many campsites do you think the area can provide for?
If you turn Homestead into a Jacks canyon be prepared for the black rubber to start building up on anything easier than 5.12, think Rifle.
Also remember how concerned you were for the integrity of the Tufa's? How well do you think that will hold up when anonymity starts to swallow the everyday climber that visits the crag?
Sure, when I started bolting out there I would have killed for a 2wd option but over the years I have learned that not having 2wd access was a blessing in disguise and I can only hope that those who appreciate what the Homestead has to offer that this sentiment can be realized by those motivated to enact change before the change they enact backfires on them.
Seriously, The Drip is where access can be fruitful, work on that and you will give Az a gem for the climbing community for years to come.
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gecko4
Mar 21, 2011, 5:11 PM
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jbone wrote: Whoa now Fred! You talk like you showed me the area and I came along after you had.. Truth is, We both started the exact same time. You never gave me beta on the area or showed me anything, if anything your interest was peaked in the area because of my efforts in El Cap Canyon the 3 years before anyone started climbing at Homestead. The first day we ran into each other at the Homestead was actually my 3rd trip into the canyon. The first day I entered the canyon you had not even started any development yet. When we started climbing Homestead we never publicized it to anyone other than our own circles. After 4 years of development we posted the information here at RC.com. For nearly a decade the Homestead has been preserved in this state and I personally attribute that to the 4x4 access. So Fred? How would you address the parking area when more than a dozen vehicles are parked at the access fork that the trails into the canyon start at? How many campsites do you think the area can provide for? If you turn Homestead into a Jacks canyon be prepared for the black rubber to start building up on anything easier than 5.12, think Rifle. Also remember how concerned you were for the integrity of the Tufa's? How well do you think that will hold up when anonymity starts to swallow the everyday climber that visits the crag? Sure, when I started bolting out there I would have killed for a 2wd option but over the years I have learned that not having 2wd access was a blessing in disguise and I can only hope that those who appreciate what the Homestead has to offer that this sentiment can be realized by those motivated to enact change before the change they enact backfires on them. Seriously, The Drip is where access can be fruitful, work on that and you will give Az a gem for the climbing community for years to come.
JBone,
Whether our calendars and sense of history match up or not is kind of beside the point when it comes to the access out there. Can we agree on this?
The issues at the Homestead are rather complicated from a land ownership perspective, from an environmental perspective, and from an access perspective. In large part because most who go out there have treated the area with great respect, there haven't really been too many big problems.
It just so happens that the Arizona Game and Fish wants to improve the road at the bad spot so that its water truck can get up to a watersaver device on the ridge. This watersaver is for the game in the area. The bad spot is right on the border of the State and Federal land so the work to address things gets kind of tricky.
The State, along with the BLM, are in the process of evaluating the environmental and other details to "fix" the road for their trucks for the benefit of the local wild game (the device is not used for watering cattle from what I understand). Whether you or I want this road work to happen or not, it's probably going to eventually take place. I don't really think you have to be too worried about a 2WD road at this time.
The efforts of some of us are to be a part of the solution, make our presence known, and have a positive involvement for the greater climbing community moving forward. Based on what I've heard from my fellow Concerned Climbers and the group's mission, you should feel assured that the climbing environment is at the forefront of any efforts.
I hope this will ease some of your larger concerns about my or the group's involvement.
Thanks,
Fred
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stonefox
Mar 23, 2011, 6:24 AM
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Hey there,
I am heading to AZ for the week on Friday. I was there last and following the mining concerns in 2008, what's up now? QC is one of my fav places to climb....I am not up on the regs at this time. Anything I need to know should be aware about before I head out there?
Thank you,
Leslie
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