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Gmburns2000
Jan 4, 2011, 1:54 PM
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notapplicable wrote: It's ok, he fucked up and tied in with me 2 weeks after the OP happened. I did tell him about it though. Just not on the first day. 
heh, you know, when I read your OP I thought to myself that this sounded familiar, but for the life of me I couldn't remember where I'd read it. It appears my instincts are better than my memory.
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boymeetsrock
Jan 4, 2011, 2:53 PM
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In reply to: I don't mind catching falls. That's what I'm there for. I do (or would) mind some condescending asshole jerking on a rope I'm tied into, implying that he doesn't trust me enough to do my job. There are other belayers, after all. Jay
Coming from you that is really saying something.
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billl7
Jan 4, 2011, 3:18 PM
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socalclimber wrote: A bazillion years ago we were bagging some routes in Indian Cove. At the end of the day we decided to grab one last route. Once on top, and with darkness closing in, we started to look for the decent. We did a very cursory glance around and decided that there was only one possible way off. There was this horrible semi steep very loose gully about 100 feet long. We decided the best option was to get one LOUSY stopper in a very LOUSY rotten crack. We figured what the hell, one biner, a sling and a stopper are not the worse things in the world to leave behind. I set up the rappel, and just as I was starting to lean back on the anchor I saw this eight year old kid standing behind my partner asking "Hey, what are you guys doing?".
You wouldn't by chance have been on Apparition Rock?
http://www.mountainproject.com/...ndian_cove/105720846
I had nearly the same exact thing happen there. I was belaying up my second, fretting over what I'd heard was an iffy descent, when this ~10 year old's head pops out above me asking if I'd seen some gear.
Bill L
P.S. I still found the descent an eye opener. 
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billl7
Jan 4, 2011, 3:32 PM
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jt512 wrote: Prior to becoming any sort of climber, I'd logged over 1000 skydives and over 1200 pilot-in-command hours, activities which ingrain the importance of systematic equipment checks, and in which you are far less likely to get a second chance to survive an equipment failure than in (free) climbing, where your equipment is a backup for your climbing skill. Perhaps that is the reason I've never made a life-threatening error wrt my climbing equipment. I've never left the ground without my harness doubled back or my knot properly tied. I've never had a partner leave the ground with my grigri threaded backward (I've threaded my grigri backward a handful of times, but I've always caught the mistake). I've never unclipped from the anchor while improperly rigged to rappel or to be lowered (I've made mistakes doing both, but have always caught them before unclipping from the anchor). So, it's not that I'm inherently immune from errors, but rather that I have systems that catch such errors before there is any consequence to them—a concept that some of you boneheads might want to take a little more seriously.
I gave this four stars ... would have been five if the last sentence had been left off.
But Jay's right. The important thing is to look at the errors, ask where processes are lacking, and decide whether and where to make changes ... preferrably before risking the error.
Bill L
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IsayAutumn
Jan 4, 2011, 4:20 PM
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billl7 wrote: jt512 wrote: Prior to becoming any sort of climber, I'd logged over 1000 skydives and over 1200 pilot-in-command hours, activities which ingrain the importance of systematic equipment checks, and in which you are far less likely to get a second chance to survive an equipment failure than in (free) climbing, where your equipment is a backup for your climbing skill. Perhaps that is the reason I've never made a life-threatening error wrt my climbing equipment. I've never left the ground without my harness doubled back or my knot properly tied. I've never had a partner leave the ground with my grigri threaded backward (I've threaded my grigri backward a handful of times, but I've always caught the mistake). I've never unclipped from the anchor while improperly rigged to rappel or to be lowered (I've made mistakes doing both, but have always caught them before unclipping from the anchor). So, it's not that I'm inherently immune from errors, but rather that I have systems that catch such errors before there is any consequence to them—a concept that some of you boneheads might want to take a little more seriously. I gave this four stars ... would have been five if the last sentence had been left off. But Jay's right. The important thing is to look at the errors, ask where processes are lacking, and decide whether and where to make changes ... preferrably before risking the error. Bill L
I agree with that. I gave it 5 stars. I guess I don't mind being called a bonehead.
Also, kudos to those willing to offer up their horror stories for the benefit of us all.
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jt512
Jan 4, 2011, 4:34 PM
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blondgecko wrote: jt512 wrote: notapplicable wrote: So far only two people who have posted to this thread have not fessed up. They also happen to be two of the most doggedly critical of other peoples mistakes on this site. Jay, Majid, please share with the group. It's ok, your in a safe place. No one will judge you here. Prior to becoming any sort of climber, I'd logged over 1000 skydives and over 1200 pilot-in-command hours, activities which ingrain the importance of systematic equipment checks, and in which you are far less likely to get a second chance to survive an equipment failure than in (free) climbing, where your equipment is a backup for your climbing skill. Perhaps that is the reason I've never made a life-threatening error wrt my climbing equipment. I've never left the ground without my harness doubled back or my knot properly tied. I've never had a partner leave the ground with my grigri threaded backward (I've threaded my grigri backward a handful of times, but I've always caught the mistake). I've never unclipped from the anchor while improperly rigged to rappel or to be lowered (I've made mistakes doing both, but have always caught them before unclipping from the anchor). So, it's not that I'm inherently immune from errors, but rather that I have systems that catch such errors before there is any consequence to them—a concept that some of you boneheads might want to take a little more seriously. Jay I think that's rather the point of this thread, isn't it? People who don't have the benefit of such extensive training receiving wake-up calls that convinced them to take safety more seriously - and sharing their mistakes so that others know to watch out for them too.
Hopefully that will be the effect of the thread, rather than, as implied by notapplicable, an opportunity for catharsis and to falsely convince ourselves that these mistakes are normal. No, they're not. Hopefully, this thread is an unrepresentative sample.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jan 4, 2011, 4:35 PM)
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jomagam
Jan 4, 2011, 4:49 PM
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I've pulled a Lynn Hill too in a gym. Started tying in and then belayer said that he'll grab something to drink and never finished the figure eight before starting to climb.
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billl7
Jan 4, 2011, 4:49 PM
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jt512 wrote: Hopefully that will be the effect of the thread, rather than, as implied by notapplicable, an opportunity for catharsis and to falsely convince ourselves that these mistakes are normal.
If there truly is such an implication, I believe it is simply backlash from another tendancy which is to sweep things under the rug (i.e., to not learn and to not help learn) - encouraged to some degree by arrogance, different styles of learning, ignorance, etc..
There's room here to be more constructive.
Bill L
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spikeddem
Jan 4, 2011, 5:25 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Incidentally, in 25 years of climbing, I have never even once had a partner grab the rope and jerk it, and hence, jerk me. On the other hand, every time I belay with a grigri, I give the rope a jerk myself, preferably while my partner is watching. Jay you know, for prosperity
I don't know why this would be quoted "for posterity." I would quote it because I agree with it 100%.
When I see my partner's eyes come over to my setup, I yank the rope upwards, and (assuming the gri-gri showed that it was properly functioning) I immediately pinch the gate of my locking biner towards the spine. I do it forcefully enough to make sure we can both hear the sound of the gate's locking part against the rest of the biner.
There's no need for them to toy with my junk. We have checked ourselves and each other visually, demonstrably, and audibly.
Moreover, to avoid any issues like NA had, I always, always, always tug on my rope above my knot before I start climbing. It's like how I check my gri-gri, but with more force.
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majid_sabet
Jan 4, 2011, 5:31 PM
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edge wrote: majid_sabet wrote: 35 years of messing around with shit and list is just too long but a picture can talk a thousand words [IMG]http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8195/screenhunter04.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9327/screenhunter05.jpg[/IMG] In focus it would only take 500 words.
well, on the same expedition, I used a cheap entry level crampons and half way on the 660 footer 70 degree ice wall, one of the crampon popes right of the boot . hanging mid air on one foot,20K high I am trying to patch up the crampon with little frozen duck-tape I had on the ice axe. 20 min later,half ass I made it to top.
$1000 gortex suit. $400 boot, tons of other expensive shit messing around with a $39 Italian made crampon in high altitude.
lesson learned
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Gmburns2000
Jan 4, 2011, 5:38 PM
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spikeddem wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Incidentally, in 25 years of climbing, I have never even once had a partner grab the rope and jerk it, and hence, jerk me. On the other hand, every time I belay with a grigri, I give the rope a jerk myself, preferably while my partner is watching. Jay you know, for prosperity I don't know why this would be quoted "for posterity." I would quote it because I agree with it 100%. When I see my partner's eyes come over to my setup, I yank the rope upwards, and (assuming the gri-gri showed that it was properly functioning) I immediately pinch the gate of my locking biner towards the spine. I do it forcefully enough to make sure we can both hear the sound of the gate's locking part against the rest of the biner. There's no need for them to toy with my junk. We have checked ourselves and each other visually, demonstrably, and audibly. Moreover, to avoid any issues like NA had, I always, always, always tug on my rope above my knot before I start climbing. It's like how I check my gri-gri, but with more force.
1) regarding the typo, you got GU'd (see my post below the post you quoted)
2) put your mind in the gutter and go back and read it again
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spikeddem
Jan 4, 2011, 5:50 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: spikeddem wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Incidentally, in 25 years of climbing, I have never even once had a partner grab the rope and jerk it, and hence, jerk me. On the other hand, every time I belay with a grigri, I give the rope a jerk myself, preferably while my partner is watching. Jay you know, for prosperity I don't know why this would be quoted "for posterity." I would quote it because I agree with it 100%. When I see my partner's eyes come over to my setup, I yank the rope upwards, and (assuming the gri-gri showed that it was properly functioning) I immediately pinch the gate of my locking biner towards the spine. I do it forcefully enough to make sure we can both hear the sound of the gate's locking part against the rest of the biner. There's no need for them to toy with my junk. We have checked ourselves and each other visually, demonstrably, and audibly. Moreover, to avoid any issues like NA had, I always, always, always tug on my rope above my knot before I start climbing. It's like how I check my gri-gri, but with more force. 1) regarding the typo, you got GU'd (see my post below the post you quoted) 2) put your mind in the gutter and go back and read it again
I wasn't correcting your typo. I somehow doubt that Jay would suddenly realize the inyourendo in his post and go back and edit it. Haha.
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fresh
Jan 4, 2011, 5:51 PM
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jomagam wrote: I've pulled a Lynn Hill too in a gym.
the worst thing I can think of that I've done was when I was while rapping off of poke-o-moonshine with a friend and my girlfriend. we tied knots in the ends, and I went first on the first of three raps. I had to swing about twenty feet to the left to get to the next rappel tree.
I had ten or fifteen feet left to go in the ropes when I got to the tree.
my friend came down next, and I had him on fireman's belay, so I helped him get to my stance by pulling the ends in. he's heavier, and had about fifteen feet left to go in the rope. since there seemed to be plenty of rope left on the ends, I untied the stopper knots.
then my girlfriend came down. she is lighter, and hence does not stretch the rope as much when rappeling. I still had her on fireman's, but wasn't thinking much about the ends of the rope. she got to a stance about five feet away from the rappel tree. but my fireman's belay was giving her trouble, and she was almost within arms reach, so I let go of the ends. then I saw that she had about five feet left before the (un-knotted) ends.
I immediately told her, and she was able to get to our stance without feeding any more rope through. but I still have that image of her rapping through the strands and falling 300 feet to the deck. not a good feeling.
what I take from this for me is that I can convince myself "it'll be fine" much too easily. I don't think I'll be so lucky if I continue to make that kind of justification in the future.
OK well that was just about the opposite of cathartic! I need some lolcats.
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Gmburns2000
Jan 4, 2011, 6:01 PM
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spikeddem wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: spikeddem wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Incidentally, in 25 years of climbing, I have never even once had a partner grab the rope and jerk it, and hence, jerk me. On the other hand, every time I belay with a grigri, I give the rope a jerk myself, preferably while my partner is watching. Jay you know, for prosperity I don't know why this would be quoted "for posterity." I would quote it because I agree with it 100%. When I see my partner's eyes come over to my setup, I yank the rope upwards, and (assuming the gri-gri showed that it was properly functioning) I immediately pinch the gate of my locking biner towards the spine. I do it forcefully enough to make sure we can both hear the sound of the gate's locking part against the rest of the biner. There's no need for them to toy with my junk. We have checked ourselves and each other visually, demonstrably, and audibly. Moreover, to avoid any issues like NA had, I always, always, always tug on my rope above my knot before I start climbing. It's like how I check my gri-gri, but with more force. 1) regarding the typo, you got GU'd (see my post below the post you quoted) 2) put your mind in the gutter and go back and read it again I wasn't correcting your typo. I somehow doubt that Jay would suddenly realize the inyourendo in his post and go back and edit it. Haha.
I think he intended the innuendo, to be honest, but I wanted it saved just in case he didn't.
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sp115
Jan 4, 2011, 6:02 PM
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fresh wrote: ..., so I let go of the ends. then I saw that she had about five feet left before the (un-knotted) ends. ... I still have that image of her rapping through the strands and falling 300 feet to the deck.
Holy shit.
As a person who climbs with his wife, I can completely relate to that.
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mr.tastycakes
Jan 4, 2011, 6:23 PM
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Here's a pretty classic noob lower-off close call:
A few summers ago I took a 4 day trip up to the Adirondacks for some climbing. On the last day of our trip, we went over to Poko to climb the moderate classic Gamesmanship. My partner and I were both viciously hungover, and the temperature and humidity had been rising steadily throughout our trip. On this particular day it was 90+ degrees, with 90% humidity...typical northeastern steam bath summer conditions. On top of that, Poko is a black cliff, and gets direct sunlight for the first half of the day.
Anyway, I set off leading the first pitch, a ~150 ft. handcrack. 40 feet up the thing I had already sweat through my shirt, and I felt awful. At about 80 feet, sweat was running into my eyes and I was seeing black spots. I recall puking a little in my mouth, and I felt like I might pass out. Anyway, I soldiered on for 30 or so more feet before realizing I had used both my #2 and #3 camalots down low, and I'd have to run it out a good 40 feet to the anchors.
Fuck this, I thought. I down-climbed a bit to my last piece, and called for my partner to lower me off. I planned to retrieve the #2 or #3 on the way down and re-lead the damn thing.
When I got back down to the ground, I saw that there was maybe 2-3 feet of brake strand remaining in my partner's hand. Without rope stretch I would have been lowered right off the end, as I was certainly >100 feet off the deck with a 60 meter rope. My partner sheepishly admitted he hadn't noticed how little rope was left, but I deserve part of the blame too...after all, I'm the one who said, "lower me" without considering whether I had enough rope to make it down the long pitch.
Anyway, I guess the lesson is to be careful bailing off of long pitches. Both climber and belayer should be thinking about how much rope is available Also, it's easier to make a mistake when you're distracted - feeling like shit, tired, hurrying to avoid that oncoming storm, etc.
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billl7
Jan 4, 2011, 6:26 PM
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fresh wrote: ... we tied knots in the ends, and I went first ... ... then my girlfriend came down ... I saw that she had about five feet left before the (un-knotted) ends. I immediately told her ...
The difference in rope stretch due to varying person weight is interesting / subtle. But I still tend to hold the rappeler as nominally responsible for watching the rope ends.
But there's an issue here with setting up a partner's expectations and then changing without notice. She may have not felt a need to watch the rope ends since she expected knots. And of course it could be something else besides whether there are knots in the ends of the rope. This - breaking a partner's expectations - may have been your point but thought it worth stating.
Thanks. Bill
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Rudmin
Jan 4, 2011, 6:57 PM
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Last winter I was on a snow slog in the Pyrenees. We were looking for a notch to get over a ridge. It was supposed to be a short scramble down. It was pretty white out, so from the top I couldn't see very far down and was about to start scrambling when my partner insisted that I rope up. This turned out to be a good idea (roping up, a better idea would have been to go back). The scramble got steeper and steeper until I was on rappel. I still couldn't see the ground but I decided we were in the right place still, and maybe it was only because of the snow and ice that it seemed so steep.
So one pitch down, I set up another anchor (a loop over a frozen block about the size of a small fridge) and went down for another 100 ft of rappelling. My partner later told me that the block moved and he sat on it to keep it in place. By this time the slope was vertical with some overhangs and ledges. By the end of the rope, I still couldn't see the ground. I was also at the knots about 10 feet above a snowy ledge. With no anchors around, I just kind of kicked out a seat in the snow and told my partner to look for better anchors above.
Well he came down to where I was without bothering to look, so I prussiked back up. While ascending I was acutely aware that the top of the rope was simply looped over a big rock and there wasn't any anchor below me. Our plan if the anchor gave away was to try to both end up on opposite sides of a big rock and hopefully not slip over it. It was frightening. Eventually I found where someone else had been here and chopped off the end of their rope and tied it around a kind of flake/horn in a corner. This was also backed up with a camera strap. I added a sling and a carabiner and we finally had a decent anchor. Luckily the last rope length got us to the snowpack at the base of the cliff.
We abandoned our plans for the day and crossed back over through the actual notch which did not require any ropes and was about 500 m downhill. In hindsight, one or both of us could have died pretty easily.
The biggest lesson I guess was routefinding (trust what you see, not what you think you know), and don't stay out in whiteout conditions. Also, I should have ascended back up after the first rope length instead of committing to something unknown.
I found a photo of the start of the rappel:
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/5850/rappel.jpg
And the actual notch we came back over:
http://img22.imageshack.us/...ortillonsuperior.jpg
(This post was edited by Rudmin on Jan 4, 2011, 7:13 PM)
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fresh
Jan 4, 2011, 7:14 PM
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mr.tastycakes wrote: On the last day of our trip, we went over to Poko to climb the moderate classic Gamesmanship.
bill7,
that's a good point. we had decided toether to tie the ends before rappeling, so that's what she was expecting. in any case, I still felt responsible because I had been leading the way that day.
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blueeyedclimber
Jan 4, 2011, 7:48 PM
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jt512 wrote: Hopefully that will be the effect of the thread, rather than, as implied by notapplicable, an opportunity for catharsis and to falsely convince ourselves that these mistakes are normal. No, they're not. Hopefully, this thread is an unrepresentative sample. Jay
No one is saying that these mistakes are normal, in the sense that you are saying. The purpose of this thread, as I see it, is not to be cathartic, but to admit your mistakes in the hopes that other people can learn from them. I don't want to speak for everyone, but I do not take lightly any mistake I have made. People make mistakes. If you are as perfect as you claim to be, then YOU are the unrepresentative sample.
Josh
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