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Purpose of second rope on trad climbing
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majid_sabet


Jan 10, 2011, 3:16 PM
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Purpose of second rope on trad climbing
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I am analyzing an accident report where two climbers were trad climbing a multi-pitch wall and lead climber was carrying the second rope coiled up on his day-pack however, he took a fall, belay lost control of the belay and leader decked ( lead rope fell to the ground) leaving belayer three pitches up with no backup rope to rap.

Anyone wants to take guess on why leader was carrying the second rope with him instead of clipping behind his harness or letting second carry it up ?


billl7


Jan 10, 2011, 3:25 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
I am analyzing an accident report where two climbers were trad climbing a multi-pitch wall and lead climber was carrying the second rope coiled up on his day-pack however, he took a fall, belay lost control of the belay and leader decked ( lead rope fell to the ground) leaving belayer three pitches up with no backup rope to rap.

Anyone wants to take guess on why leader was carrying the second rope with him instead of clipping behind his harness or letting second carry it up ?
It was the end of the daylight hours. Leader was going to fix the next pitch and rap back down for the night. That pitch was longer than half a rope length.

Edit: I don't know why the leader wouldn't trail the second rope in my explanation.

Now, why wasn't the system closed on the lead rope?


(This post was edited by billl7 on Jan 10, 2011, 3:27 PM)


redlude97


Jan 10, 2011, 3:26 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
I am analyzing an accident report where two climbers were trad climbing a multi-pitch wall and lead climber was carrying the second rope coiled up on his day-pack however, he took a fall, belay lost control of the belay and leader decked ( lead rope fell to the ground) leaving belayer three pitches up with no backup rope to rap.

Anyone wants to take guess on why leader was carrying the second rope with him instead of clipping behind his harness or letting second carry it up ?
the belayer was a weakass noob?


Gmburns2000


Jan 10, 2011, 3:35 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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not sure why the leader was carrying it in his pack, but as for the second not taking it, unless the second was going to put it in his pack, I've always been under the impression that the leader takes it in case it becomes snarled somewhere. In other words, the second has a better chance of fixing a CF with it.

I dunno, otherwise?, maybe the leader was a stronger climber and it made sense for him to take the second rope?

sucks that the dude fell. here's hoping he's OK.

more importantly, why did the lead rope go through the second's belay device? Three pitches up and he wasn't tied in? Sounds odd, even if they were untying to switch belays.


majid_sabet


Jan 10, 2011, 3:56 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
I am analyzing an accident report where two climbers were trad climbing a multi-pitch wall and lead climber was carrying the second rope coiled up on his day-pack however, he took a fall, belay lost control of the belay and leader decked ( lead rope fell to the ground) leaving belayer three pitches up with no backup rope to rap.

Anyone wants to take guess on why leader was carrying the second rope with him instead of clipping behind his harness or letting second carry it up ?
the belayer was a weakass noob?

yes she was but what your take on this ?


majid_sabet


Jan 10, 2011, 3:58 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
not sure why the leader was carrying it in his pack, but as for the second not taking it, unless the second was going to put it in his pack, I've always been under the impression that the leader takes it in case it becomes snarled somewhere. In other words, the second has a better chance of fixing a CF with it.

I dunno, otherwise?, maybe the leader was a stronger climber and it made sense for him to take the second rope?

sucks that the dude fell. here's hoping he's OK.

more importantly, why did the lead rope go through the second's belay device? Three pitches up and he wasn't tied in? Sounds odd, even if they were untying to switch belays.

well, this was a disaster from the beginning and i am trying to figure out why leader was carrying the rope. sure he was stronger and more experience but still, numbers do not add right.

Anyways, both ended up ok.


majid_sabet


Jan 10, 2011, 4:02 PM
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Re: [billl7] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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billl7 wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
I am analyzing an accident report where two climbers were trad climbing a multi-pitch wall and lead climber was carrying the second rope coiled up on his day-pack however, he took a fall, belay lost control of the belay and leader decked ( lead rope fell to the ground) leaving belayer three pitches up with no backup rope to rap.

Anyone wants to take guess on why leader was carrying the second rope with him instead of clipping behind his harness or letting second carry it up ?
It was the end of the daylight hours. Leader was going to fix the next pitch and rap back down for the night. That pitch was longer than half a rope length.

Edit: I don't know why the leader wouldn't trail the second rope in my explanation.

Now, why wasn't the system closed on the lead rope?

3rd to 4th pitch had an 8 m traverse so rapping back to p3 was out of question. I am guessing that he did not want the weak n00b carry the rope.


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jan 10, 2011, 4:34 PM)


billl7


Jan 10, 2011, 4:05 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
billl7 wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
I am analyzing an accident report where two climbers were trad climbing a multi-pitch wall and lead climber was carrying the second rope coiled up on his day-pack however, he took a fall, belay lost control of the belay and leader decked ( lead rope fell to the ground) leaving belayer three pitches up with no backup rope to rap.

Anyone wants to take guess on why leader was carrying the second rope with him instead of clipping behind his harness or letting second carry it up ?
It was the end of the daylight hours. Leader was going to fix the next pitch and rap back down for the night. That pitch was longer than half a rope length.

Edit: I don't know why the leader wouldn't trail the second rope in my explanation.

Now, why wasn't the system closed on the lead rope?

3rd to 4th pitch had an 8 m traverse so rapping back to p3 was out of question. I am guessing that he did not the weak n00b carry the rope.
That's jusk like you, majid - always withholding information. Wink


rdr_1988


Jan 10, 2011, 4:25 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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so that if his belayer dropped him, he'd be stuck mid route without a rope


majid_sabet


Jan 10, 2011, 4:33 PM
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Re: [rdr_1988] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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rdr_1988 wrote:
so that if his belayer dropped him, he'd be stuck mid route without a rope

yes, she was stuck on the wall with no rope to rap and needed a rescue.


bill413


Jan 10, 2011, 5:02 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
rdr_1988 wrote:
so that if his belayer dropped him, he'd be stuck mid route without a rope

yes, she was stuck on the wall with no rope to rap and needed a rescue.

1) The leader never expected to get dropped.
2) The leader expected to be able to do the climb (otherwise he should not have choosen that climb with what you describe as a weak second).

So, given those, there was no reason to prefer one over the other to carry the rope. If the route was quite difficult for the second, the leader carried it to make her climb easier, and hopefully more successful.

And, as for not trailing it, perhaps (especially with the traverse) the leader was concerned about it getting tangled & stuck.


bearbreeder


Jan 10, 2011, 5:15 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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if you actually climbed you'd be able to figure it out i'm sure Tongue

that weakass noob probably climbs better than ya Wink

consider the time that it takes to restack the second rope each pitch as a possible reason as to not trailing it

the question to ask is why wasnt she tied into the same rope ... and if not how did she anchor herself ... if all this is even real ...


majid_sabet


Jan 10, 2011, 5:22 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
if you actually climbed you'd be able to figure it out i'm sure Tongue

that weakass noob probably climbs better than ya Wink

consider the time that it takes to restack the second rope each pitch as a possible reason as to not trailing it

the question to ask is why wasnt she tied into the same rope ... and if not how did she anchor herself ... if all this is even real ...

I am really getting tired of you chasing me around in RC so please stay out of my way before you piss me off.

Thanks for your cooperation and move on.


rocknice2


Jan 10, 2011, 5:24 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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worst troll ever


bill413


Jan 10, 2011, 7:24 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
if you actually climbed you'd be able to figure it out i'm sure Tongue

that weakass noob probably climbs better than ya Wink

consider the time that it takes to restack the second rope each pitch as a possible reason as to not trailing it

the question to ask is why wasnt she tied into the same rope ... and if not how did she anchor herself ... if all this is even real ...

Whether or not the "weakass noob" climbs stronger than majid or not is irrelevant. An accident happened. A question has been raised. (Perhaps not germaine to the accident, but then again, the father asking "which hand" in A River Runs Through It may or may not be pertinent.) The question (nor answer) has little to do with the asker's ability to crank.


vegastradguy


Jan 10, 2011, 7:27 PM
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Re: [rocknice2] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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im confused. how could this possibly happen? what the hell was the second doing not tied into the rope?

a leader with a trail line in a pack is odd, but i've seen weirder things. not that unusual.


silascl


Jan 10, 2011, 9:16 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
not sure why the leader was carrying it in his pack, but as for the second not taking it, unless the second was going to put it in his pack, I've always been under the impression that the leader takes it in case it becomes snarled somewhere. In other words, the second has a better chance of fixing a CF with it.

I dunno, otherwise?, maybe the leader was a stronger climber and it made sense for him to take the second rope?

sucks that the dude fell. here's hoping he's OK.

more importantly, why did the lead rope go through the second's belay device? Three pitches up and he wasn't tied in? Sounds odd, even if they were untying to switch belays.

well, this was a disaster from the beginning and i am trying to figure out why leader was carrying the rope. sure he was stronger and more experience but still, numbers do not add right.

Anyways, both ended up ok.

Guy decked from the 3rd pitch and is ok? Sounds like he's doing something right.


billl7


Jan 10, 2011, 9:39 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
not sure why the leader was carrying it in his pack, but as for the second not taking it, unless the second was going to put it in his pack, I've always been under the impression that the leader takes it in case it becomes snarled somewhere. In other words, the second has a better chance of fixing a CF with it.

I dunno, otherwise?, maybe the leader was a stronger climber and it made sense for him to take the second rope?

sucks that the dude fell. here's hoping he's OK.

more importantly, why did the lead rope go through the second's belay device? Three pitches up and he wasn't tied in? Sounds odd, even if they were untying to switch belays.

well, this was a disaster from the beginning and i am trying to figure out why leader was carrying the rope. sure he was stronger and more experience but still, numbers do not add right. .
You said rope so I would guess not but ...

Was the second rope a "single" rope or perhaps a skinny tag line. Plenty of times I've led with the skinny tag line on my back when my second has our water, jackets, and a little extra food.


uni_jim


Jan 10, 2011, 9:41 PM
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Re: [silascl] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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silascl wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
not sure why the leader was carrying it in his pack, but as for the second not taking it, unless the second was going to put it in his pack, I've always been under the impression that the leader takes it in case it becomes snarled somewhere. In other words, the second has a better chance of fixing a CF with it.

I dunno, otherwise?, maybe the leader was a stronger climber and it made sense for him to take the second rope?

sucks that the dude fell. here's hoping he's OK.

more importantly, why did the lead rope go through the second's belay device? Three pitches up and he wasn't tied in? Sounds odd, even if they were untying to switch belays.

well, this was a disaster from the beginning and i am trying to figure out why leader was carrying the rope. sure he was stronger and more experience but still, numbers do not add right.

Anyways, both ended up ok.

Guy decked from the 3rd pitch and is ok? Sounds like he's doing something right.

He knew to be redundant, so when his n00b belayer dropped him, he allready had a pile of soft n00bs at the base to break his fall. Kinda like headpointing with a crash pad.


bearbreeder


Jan 10, 2011, 10:08 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:

I am really getting tired of you chasing me around in RC so please stay out of my way before you piss me off.

Thanks for your cooperation and move on.

dont like being asked questions mista majid? ... you seem to have no issue telling everyone how stupid they are and how they will die

well tough luck its a free world ... i simply asked the relevant question and provided a possible explanation on the pack

you still havent asked or answered the relevant question ... why wasnt the second tied in properly???

whether the rope is in the leaders pack, the seconds pack or trailing isnt really a relevant issue if the both climbers are tied in properly ... as you would know from climbing you can falll on lead anytime ...
Wink


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jan 10, 2011, 10:08 PM)


patto


Jan 10, 2011, 10:21 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
you still havent asked or answered the relevant question ... why wasnt the second tied in properly???

My thoughts exactly.

Furthermore if I am carrying a spare rope by preference I'd have my second carry it.


rtwilli4


Jan 10, 2011, 11:04 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
if you actually climbed you'd be able to figure it out i'm sure Tongue

that weakass noob probably climbs better than ya Wink

consider the time that it takes to restack the second rope each pitch as a possible reason as to not trailing it

the question to ask is why wasnt she tied into the same rope ... and if not how did she anchor herself ... if all this is even real ...

When you trail a rope you don't stack in separately... you stack it right along with the lead rope (at least I do). Takes no extra time.


majid_sabet


Jan 10, 2011, 11:15 PM
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Re: [vegastradguy] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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vegastradguy wrote:
im confused. how could this possibly happen? what the hell was the second doing not tied into the rope?

a leader with a trail line in a pack is odd, but i've seen weirder things. not that unusual.

leader took a n00b for a ride and set everything up including fixing all anchors so on the last pitch (3rd) he had to do 7-8 m traverse to the left and then continue upward. At that point, he takes fall and n00b hits the wall ( possibility of some sort of redirect) and she loose it, rope runs thru her hands and burns them pretty bad. When she gain consciousness she was still holding the rope but then she drops it and leader falls another 2m till rope drops to the ground.

Again these were short pitches (18m,20m,20m) and first rope was a 60m and second rope was 50 m.


majid_sabet


Jan 10, 2011, 11:25 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:

I am really getting tired of you chasing me around in RC so please stay out of my way before you piss me off.

Thanks for your cooperation and move on.

dont like being asked questions mista majid? ... you seem to have no issue telling everyone how stupid they are and how they will die

well tough luck its a free world ... i simply asked the relevant question and provided a possible explanation on the pack

you still havent asked or answered the relevant question ... why wasnt the second tied in properly???

whether the rope is in the leaders pack, the seconds pack or trailing isnt really a relevant issue if the both climbers are tied in properly ... as you would know from climbing you can fall on lead anytime ...
Wink

show me one post out of 7000+ threads to my name that I called people stupid and they were going to die.

come on, start searching


majid_sabet


Jan 10, 2011, 11:26 PM
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Re: [billl7] Purpose of second rope on trad climbing [In reply to]
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billl7 wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
not sure why the leader was carrying it in his pack, but as for the second not taking it, unless the second was going to put it in his pack, I've always been under the impression that the leader takes it in case it becomes snarled somewhere. In other words, the second has a better chance of fixing a CF with it.

I dunno, otherwise?, maybe the leader was a stronger climber and it made sense for him to take the second rope?

sucks that the dude fell. here's hoping he's OK.

more importantly, why did the lead rope go through the second's belay device? Three pitches up and he wasn't tied in? Sounds odd, even if they were untying to switch belays.

well, this was a disaster from the beginning and i am trying to figure out why leader was carrying the rope. sure he was stronger and more experience but still, numbers do not add right. .
You said rope so I would guess not but ...

Was the second rope a "single" rope or perhaps a skinny tag line. Plenty of times I've led with the skinny tag line on my back when my second has our water, jackets, and a little extra food.

it was 50 m 10.2 mm

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