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pyrfordpaul
Jan 11, 2011, 2:21 PM
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Yesterday in the gym I took a fall of 3 or 4 meters. On a figure of 8.
When I got back to the floor and tried to undo the knot, it was stiff and hard to undo, nothing unusual. But once I had gotten a strand out, I realised that the sheath of the rope on each strand was stuck to the opposite strand it had been touching in the knot. I appeared the friction from the knot tightening in the fall melted the sheath to itself.
I pulled it apart, it wasn't majorly melted, there's no visible damage left over. It doesn't really seem like a big deal, but I've never seen this before, and was wondering if anyone else has? Is this normal?
Cheers,
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viciado
Jan 11, 2011, 3:55 PM
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How did you fall that far in the gym? I would be more concerned about your clipping habits or your belayer's competency... more information would help us understand the situation.
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pyrfordpaul
Jan 11, 2011, 4:21 PM
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Is that a particularly big fall? At the gym, the bolts are spaced further apart at the top of the wall. It is an overhung route. I have taken similar falls on the same, and other ropes, and never seen this slight melting.
Approximately: I was 1m above the last bolt I clipped, there was 0.5m slack and 0.5m stretch. = 3m fall. I wouldn't consider it a big or scary fall, maybe I need to reconsider, but that's not the question at hand.
Thanks
P
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kennoyce
Jan 11, 2011, 4:42 PM
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pyrfordpaul wrote: Yesterday in the gym I took a fall of 3 or 4 meters. On a figure of 8. When I got back to the floor and tried to undo the knot, it was stiff and hard to undo, nothing unusual. But once I had gotten a strand out, I realised that the sheath of the rope on each strand was stuck to the opposite strand it had been touching in the knot. I appeared the friction from the knot tightening in the fall melted the sheath to itself. I pulled it apart, it wasn't majorly melted, there's no visible damage left over. It doesn't really seem like a big deal, but I've never seen this before, and was wondering if anyone else has? Is this normal? Cheers,
A 3 or 4 meeter fall in nothing, don't worry about that. The only thing I can think of to reduce the risk of melting the sheath is dressing your knot better. I don't know how well your knot was dressed, but a looser knot will obviously allow for more slipping as it tightens, which will create more heat from friction and increase the chances of melting.
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darkgift06
Jan 11, 2011, 4:52 PM
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I agree, sounds like the knot was slack & when you fell it got tight fast. When you dress your knot, if you pull on each strand individually you will get your knot nice & tight & clean.
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dynosore
Jan 11, 2011, 4:52 PM
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pyrfordpaul wrote: Yesterday in the gym I took a fall of 3 or 4 meters. On a figure of 8. When I got back to the floor and tried to undo the knot, it was stiff and hard to undo, nothing unusual. But once I had gotten a strand out, I realised that the sheath of the rope on each strand was stuck to the opposite strand it had been touching in the knot. I appeared the friction from the knot tightening in the fall melted the sheath to itself. I pulled it apart, it wasn't majorly melted, there's no visible damage left over. It doesn't really seem like a big deal, but I've never seen this before, and was wondering if anyone else has? Is this normal? Cheers,
I've seen ropes kind of glaze over, but not melt. If you had truly melted it you wouldn't have been undoing that knot.
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viciado
Jan 11, 2011, 5:04 PM
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At a typical gym, you tend to find walls that are about 10 meters with a meter between the draws. Sometimes you see them farther apart near the top, but most manufacturers anticipate one meter spacing. If you were lead climbing, I would expect a 2 or 3 meter fall on vertical and not much more than 2 meters on very overhanging (since you don't fall past the draw). It sounds like you were clipping from a good distance before your belt line "arrived" at the draw. Falling during such a clip would introduce extra slack. A belayer feeding excess slack would do the same. Given the physical limitations of most gyms, I was surprised by the numbers which could take you near ground fall anywhere below the midpoint. Your indication that you may have been near the top makes more sense.
As has been said, the rope glazing is not a major concern, but it could be a sign that your knot was loosely dressed. As also stated above, I would be concerned in a gym environment about the distance of your fall which seems to me to be more than I expected for a gym.
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cracklover
Jan 11, 2011, 5:11 PM
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pyrfordpaul wrote: I pulled it apart, it wasn't majorly melted, there's no visible damage left over. It doesn't really seem like a big deal, but I've never seen this before, and was wondering if anyone else has? Is this normal? Cheers,
dynosore wrote: I've seen ropes kind of glaze over, but not melt. If you had truly melted it you wouldn't have been undoing that knot.
Sounds like you guys are talking about the same thing.
Personally I've never seen this, but I have had ropes heavily glaze over (to the point of being permanently crispy) from rappelling fast on a thick rope single strand, so clearly ropes can glaze pretty easily with fairly normal use.
GO
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tedman
Jan 12, 2011, 8:05 PM
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Did the same thing at my gym once. Blew the top clip, clipping at or just above head level. I basically ended up sitting on top of my belayer when she caught me. I'm not sure if she might have had a wee bit too much slack out, or if it was just the blown clip/stretch/etc. Probly about 20 feet total? dunno. Knot was definitely melted together, took a good 15 minutes to get it undone. I now dress my knots cleaner or use a fig 9 with a bit of space to fit a biner in there to pull it apart if needed. glad it wasnt my rope tho!
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bandycoot
Jan 12, 2011, 8:53 PM
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viciado wrote: At a typical gym, you tend to find walls that are about 10 meters with a meter between the draws. Sometimes you see them farther apart near the top, but most manufacturers anticipate one meter spacing. If you were lead climbing, I would expect a 2 or 3 meter fall on vertical and not much more than 2 meters on very overhanging (since you don't fall past the draw). It sounds like you were clipping from a good distance before your belt line "arrived" at the draw. Falling during such a clip would introduce extra slack. A belayer feeding excess slack would do the same. Given the physical limitations of most gyms, I was surprised by the numbers which could take you near ground fall anywhere below the midpoint. Your indication that you may have been near the top makes more sense.
You make way too many assumptions here, and your expected fall distances are not very reasonable. A 3-4m fall, and sometimes larger, is expected.
Josh
(This post was edited by bandycoot on Jan 12, 2011, 8:57 PM)
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jeepnphreak
Jan 12, 2011, 11:47 PM
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viciado wrote: How did you fall that far in the gym? I would be more concerned about your clipping habits or your belayer's competency... more information would help us understand the situation.
Iam not sure how the Portugal gyms are set up, or or what typical. But here is a brief description of my local gym.
The first bolt is 8 feet (2.5 ish m) off the ground, you can hop and touch it no problem. Second clip is 3 feet(1 M) above that. The next sequence of clips are every 5 feet(1.7m) up to the ceiling. On the ceiling they are spaced as the route setter deems necessary.
So; if the climber is near the ceiling as stated, is 5 feet above the last clip and trying to clip the next one ad falls that 5 feet + rope = 10, then you have rope stretch and the distance the belayer is pulled off the ground. that an easy 12 feet or... 4 meters. our ceiling is 35 feet so plenty of room left to fall.
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majid_sabet
Jan 13, 2011, 12:07 AM
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pyrfordpaul wrote: Yesterday in the gym I took a fall of 3 or 4 meters. On a figure of 8. When I got back to the floor and tried to undo the knot, it was stiff and hard to undo, nothing unusual. But once I had gotten a strand out, I realised that the sheath of the rope on each strand was stuck to the opposite strand it had been touching in the knot. I appeared the friction from the knot tightening in the fall melted the sheath to itself. I pulled it apart, it wasn't majorly melted, there's no visible damage left over. It doesn't really seem like a big deal, but I've never seen this before, and was wondering if anyone else has? Is this normal? Cheers,
photos please
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viciado
Jan 13, 2011, 2:58 PM
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bandycoot wrote: You make way too many assumptions here, and your expected fall distances are not very reasonable. A 3-4m fall, and sometimes larger, is expected. Josh
I made the assumptions based on the lack of information in the OP. There were too many blanks.
In any case, as I indicated, I would not be concerned about glazing of the sheath on a standard gym rope. I would be more concerned about ground fall due to excess slack that results from 1) clipping from too far below a draw and 2) belayer error. A cursory glance through posts in this forum will show overwhelming evidence that this does happen quite often whereas you will not find a single instance of a glazed sheath resulting in the system failure.
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viciado
Jan 13, 2011, 3:21 PM
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Jeep... aside from slight estimation erros, I am in agreement with you. A fall from the anchors would not be too bad. Particularly since there is more rope to absorb the energy. That is what led me to assume (other assumptions explained above) he was lower down... given the glazing described in the OP. A fall of 3 to 4 meters on a shorter rope system could easily produce a high amount of heat in a loosely dressed knot. Obvisouly, from the OP, it can happen from the anchors too. It may well be that this was simpy the result of a loose knot. If so, great, lesson learned, But I would encourage the OP to check the rest of the system including clipping and belyer practices to eliminate other areas that could add up to greater inssues in the future. I'm not accusing, just posing the questions I would ask if it were me in the harness instead.
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ptlong2
Jan 13, 2011, 6:05 PM
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viciado wrote: If you were lead climbing, I would expect a 2 or 3 meter fall on vertical and not much more than 2 meters on very overhanging (since you don't fall past the draw). It sounds like you were clipping from a good distance before your belt line "arrived" at the draw. Falling during such a clip would introduce extra slack.
Vicado, falling while clipping above your head instead of at the waist would result in more slack and possibly a ground fall. But it wouldn't result in a longer fall and wouldn't increase the force on the climber's knot. If anything the lower fall factor would mean a reduced force.
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cracklover
Jan 13, 2011, 6:41 PM
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As I stated in my earlier post, while I've majorly glazed ropes through fairly normal use, I've never personally noticed any glazing in my knot from a fall.
That being said, I took a look at the gym ropes used for lead climbing in my local gym, and they all were slightly glazed where the knot would be.
So clearly it is a very common occurrence that most people simply don't bother with or even notice.
GO
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pyrfordpaul
Jan 13, 2011, 6:45 PM
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Hi everyone, thanks very much for your replies.
This minor glazing you described is exactly what I experienced. Melted was a strong word but I didn't know what other word to use.
I think that it's very likely my eight knot was dressed loosely, and that explains why this happened this time and not previously.
Thanks again!
P
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viciado
Jan 13, 2011, 7:49 PM
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ptlong2 wrote: viciado wrote: If you were lead climbing, I would expect a 2 or 3 meter fall on vertical and not much more than 2 meters on very overhanging (since you don't fall past the draw). It sounds like you were clipping from a good distance before your belt line "arrived" at the draw. Falling during such a clip would introduce extra slack. Vicado, falling while clipping above your head instead of at the waist would result in more slack and possibly a ground fall. But it wouldn't result in a longer fall and wouldn't increase the force on the climber's knot. If anything the lower fall factor would mean a reduced force.
Before responding... I rest on my first post in saying that there are more important considerations than glazing.
But I have to ask: how does having more slack not increase the distance one will fall until the rope stops them? My reasoning using the up thread example of the gym that has draws about every 5 ft (about 1.5 m) near the top... If I climb from my last clip to where my belt is even with the draw and miss that clip, I can fall 3m plus stretch. If I climb so that my belt is half a meter below the draw and pull necessary slack to clip, but miss the actual clip, I will have introduced 2 meters of slack above my last piece and will thus fall 4 meters plus stretch (and possibly extra slack from belayer, since I was pulling up rope.). What am I missing that would say it is not a longer fall?
FWIW, I agree on the force likely being less with more rope in the system due to the reduced ff. If I indicated that poorly, I apologize.
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jt512
Jan 13, 2011, 8:02 PM
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viciado wrote: ptlong2 wrote: viciado wrote: If you were lead climbing, I would expect a 2 or 3 meter fall on vertical and not much more than 2 meters on very overhanging (since you don't fall past the draw). It sounds like you were clipping from a good distance before your belt line "arrived" at the draw. Falling during such a clip would introduce extra slack. Vicado, falling while clipping above your head instead of at the waist would result in more slack and possibly a ground fall. But it wouldn't result in a longer fall and wouldn't increase the force on the climber's knot. If anything the lower fall factor would mean a reduced force. But I have to ask: how does having more slack not increase the distance one will fall until the rope stops them? My reasoning using the up thread example of the gym that has draws about every 5 ft (about 1.5 m) near the top... If I climb from my last clip to where my belt is even with the draw and miss that clip, I can fall 3m plus stretch. If I climb so that my belt is half a meter below the draw and pull necessary slack to clip, but miss the actual clip, I will have introduced 2 meters of slack above my last piece and will thus fall 4 meters plus stretch (and possibly extra slack from belayer, since I was pulling up rope.). What am I missing that would say it is not a longer fall?
Try drawing a diagram, or do a search. This has been discussed many times.
Jay
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viciado
Jan 13, 2011, 8:38 PM
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Got it... sorry for annoying your majesty. It was an honest question, Calculating where my feet would end up: ground fall was my focus and the end result appeared "farther" rather than simply lower. Not just semantics, though. Distance of flight is as indicated: the same.
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jt512
Jan 13, 2011, 9:02 PM
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viciado wrote: Got it... sorry for annoying your majesty. It was an honest question, Calculating where my feet would end up: ground fall was my focus and the end result appeared "farther" rather than simply lower. Not just semantics, though. Distance of flight is as indicated: the same.
So, I suggested that if you were to draw a diagram that you'd understand it. So you took my advice, drew the diagram, and in fact understood it. Yet you feel compelled to respond with a snotty post.
Jay
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jbro_135
Jan 13, 2011, 10:37 PM
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viciado wrote: Got it... sorry for annoying your majesty. It was an honest question, Calculating where my feet would end up: ground fall was my focus and the end result appeared "farther" rather than simply lower. Not just semantics, though. Distance of flight is as indicated: the same.
It is a good thing to follow the First Law of Holes: if you are in one, stop digging.
Denis Healy (1917- )
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bandycoot
Jan 13, 2011, 11:46 PM
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viciado wrote: bandycoot wrote: You make way too many assumptions here, and your expected fall distances are not very reasonable. A 3-4m fall, and sometimes larger, is expected. Josh I made the assumptions based on the lack of information in the OP. There were too many blanks.
Jay, my favorite is that his justification for misinformation is a lack of information.
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