That's the problem with the lack of editorial oversight.

The "user base" consists overwhelmingly of n00bs and career incompetents whose primary use of the site is to post bad and frequently dangerous advice to other n00bs and career incompetents on topics in which they have neither understanding nor experience. Since this site also sits on one of the nicer bits of internet real estate, it has earned a high-profile brand (given how small the market niche is), but that brand is for idiocy and incompetence.

At the moment, the only corrective to that sad state of affairs, is the fear that one's anonymous avatar may get publicly ridiculed by Jay or Curt.

Ironically, the BET slums are one of the least ridiculous environments here, largely because they post about nothing but baking, gardening, and pets.

I appreciate the misery of being a mod, but I am not a fan of the idea that policy here should be driven by the libidinal impulses of the loudest sheep. That's not the only model for a successful site.

All good points, but you're pissing into the wind. Perhaps that's admirable from a purely principled position, but surely you must see that the die has already been cast.

I, for one, would rather see JT aim for some kind of compromise and stay her for a long time, than encourage him to go out with guns blazing. The latter might be entertaining for five minutes, but doesn't really serve anyone's interest.

GO

Tilt at windmills to your heart's content.

Not just about jt or this particular incident. This is a long-term problem, partly because the climbing community is so fragmented, partly because we have a growing set of issues coming up with land managers and rc.n00b is, god help us, one of the most public faces of climbing.

Kelly, although you might not have been aware of it, your online status is currently hidden (click to enlarge).

Not just about jt or this particular incident. This is a long-term problem, partly because the climbing community is so fragmented, partly because we have a growing set of issues coming up with land managers and rc.n00b is, god help us, one of the most public faces of climbing.

so yeah, on the increasingly rare occasions that i surf or post here, it's worth pointing out one of the strucutral problems this site (and many others) face.

it's not really about me hating on the mods or even ownership or thinking there's another mid-school dust-up that could be resolved in a happier way.

the transition out of editorial journalism and into the big new wild world, esp. one without a reliable revenue model, isn't getting resolved by anything done to/by j. i expect this basic problem to be with us for years, and not just here at america's least favorite site for pets, baking, and gardening.

1) we were all noobs at one point. Including you.

2) when the site was considered slightly more civil, there were more informed sources willing to post. Many of them owners of gear companies and professional climbers. Most of them have now been run off the site by the "noise". . .. Insults were thrown at the noobs to the point that real questions with real answers don't get asked anymore. . . .

1. Indeed, I, too, was once a n00b. Since I keep trying to work on new stuff, I have to go through it over and over again. There's nothing shameful about being a n00b. But there's nothing uplifting about it, either. The problem isn't that n00bs are asking questions. The problem is that n00bs are also answering those questions. Given anonymity, the general decline of belief in expertise and competence, and the corollary growth of belief that any opinion is as good as another, the mechanisms for separating out ignorant, idiotic and frankly dangerous responses or claims are pretty limited.

All institutions have mechanisms for sorting participants into hierarchies of popularity or experience or competence. Many of those mechanisms are pretty harsh, especially in professional environments. Hazing is one of the common ones, but that's only the beginning. One of the problems with this site, is that it doesn't have any mechanisms, so cutting criticisms of ungrounded or badly warranted claims becomes the default. I'm not saying that's the fault of the moderators, just that it's the case.

Folks are incorrect to claim that Jay's sarcasm and occasional viciousness serve no useful purpose. They do-- they provide a tiny bit of deterrent to the many posters here who press groundless opinions without bothering to acquire the experience or doing the work necessary to justify their claims.


2. I don't believe that the unfriendliness to n00bs has made this site unattractive to many folks of competence and accomplishment. Indeed, many of them have fled over to ST, which is far nastier than this place will ever be. If unfriendliness to n00bs were the problem, ST wouldn't even exist.

Again, the means you have at hand to make the site "friendlier" to posting by n00bs will also make the site friendlier to posting by incompetents and idiots.

I don't have an easy solution to that problem. There are at least two different models-- one is editorial oversight and heavy moderation (a la UKC). The other is virtually no moderation (a la ST). It's probably not an accident, that those two sites are also the ones with the best reputation for attracting a spectrum of knowledgeable and accomplished contributors.

Of course, those two sites also have different revenue models.

You all say you want to learn things, and have useful information shared, but most people are afraid to post real questions and useful information for fear that majid or Jay or somebody else will come along and tell them how stupid they are for not wearing a helmet or not doing a search first. Maybe they should have worn a helmet, and hell yes they should have done a search, but there are better ways to handle these issues.

First of all, I've never told anybody that they were stupid for not wearing a helmet, and I don't think I've ever told anybody they were stupid for not doing a search. I have possibly told someone that they were stupid because they couldn't comprehend why they actually should do a search rather than ask a tired old question anew, but that's not the same thing.

Secondly, I am not one of the people around here who tells n00bs they're stupid or to shut up just because they are n00bs. "Do a search; it's been asked a million times before"? Sure. But I am not one of the people around here who run n00bs through some sort of gauntlet for entertainment. Don't tar me with that brush.

Now, are you claiming that there is a better way to handle a n00b who comes onto the site and asks a question that's been asked over and over again than to inform him that his question is redundant and that he should do a search? If so, I'd like to hear it. In my opinion, not only should he be told to do a search, he should be told by a moderator, just before she locks his thread. This lack of prudent moderation is exactly why ordinary users step in to fill the gap.

But where the mods go wrong is to blame the regular user base for doing what the moderators should be doing. If keeping unwanted redundancy out of the forums is left to the users, then, yeah, it's going to get messy, as it has. If, on the other hand, a mod steps in and locks the thread (and posts a link to the forum rule about not asking a redundant question), it's done. No argument, no flamefest, no butthurt n00b, nobody gets threatened with being banned. The n00b runs off and does his search, and if his question still isn't answered, he comes back and says "I did this search and found out A, B, C, but I still don't understand D. Now, he gets respect from the regular users, because he's shown he's done his homework, thought about the issue, and probably now has an intelligent, and possibly even original, question to ask.

This is the way it works at many other forums, and there is absolutely no question that it results in the informational content of those forums being orders off magnitude higher than it is here, and to the extent that the mods can be vigilant enough, eliminates users scolding n00bs for not doing a search.

Jay

I'm simply saying that there needs to be a solution. The last paragraph of your post provided a good start. But for it to happen, then we need to start recruiting more moderators. Any suggestions for that?

Contrary to popular belief, this site really doesn't make a lot of money. . . . The reality is that we don't have a way of keeping the n00bs from posting dangerous responses. If you look at the list of mods, it's a slim list. There isn't an army of us.

Suggestions for strategies to recruit moderators or for specific individuals?

Jay

Who does everybody think would make good, impartial, diligent moderators? I'm curious.

Although it's tempting to nominate k.l.k and tripperjim, I think vegastradguy would do a good jorb.

Jay

Who does everybody think would make good, impartial, diligent moderators? I'm curious.

Didn't we just go over this, today? I wus elevated to Green Overlord by popular vote. I iz yore gnu greenie. I mean come on, knot many people on this site, with more experience than me and I have a plan. I mean who woodn't want to see sungam and enigma in cages, on teh ft page, with a button ewe can push that wood poke them with a stick? USn00b and Major Sorbet, who's gunna miss them? And who ewe gunna get to deal with those unrully losers in teh BET? Ewe awlready has two greenies in there with several others lurking and those knuckleheds are still a problem.

Thing is, instead of welcoming me with open arms and a little red banz button,... I am censored, without even a courtesy pm or a funny reply. Now, how could I ever trust this site again, after I wus treated this way?

2) when the site was considered slightly more civil, there were more informed sources willing to post. Many of them owners of gear companies and professional climbers. Most of them have now been run off the site by the "noise".

and to top it all off, a large and vocal group who treat the whole site and the posts in it as a big joke for their amusement.

Are you suggesting that's not what this site is for?

The whole package leaves a bad taste in the mouth among people who have limited patience for juvenile BS. Especially if they know they could be spending online time with people who respect them elsewhere.

Are you suggesting that's not what this site is for?

Go on MountainProject isn't Jay the adminstrator there.?
Or go to New Jack City tar pit and use your sticks on each other.
Its time to grow up and act at least like adults.