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potreroed
Feb 10, 2011, 6:56 PM
Post #26 of 47
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Yes, I did actually see a guy fall out of his harness on a lead fall once because it wasn't doubled back. Fortunately he was still very close to the ground and didn't get hurt.
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happiegrrrl
Feb 10, 2011, 7:56 PM
Post #27 of 47
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Rudmin wrote: If the waist buckle did come completely undone, the climber is still attached by their leg loops. On top rope this means just grabbing the rope to keep balanced. On lead, this might mean flipping upside down if you took a fall. You would then most likely be caught by the leg loops. If you have ever seen a beginner put on a harness, it is in fact very easy to get tangled up and stuck in the leg loops. It would be a very unlucky climber that didn't double back their buckle, took a lead fall, had the waist come completely undone, flipped upside down, and slid out of the leg loops. I sure as hell wouldn't want to see anyone test these theories....
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swaghole
Feb 10, 2011, 8:57 PM
Post #28 of 47
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Rudmin wrote: I doubt it often causes serious accidents. Here are my reasons: The waist buckle doesn't take very much load normally, nothing close to what the rope does. The first thing to take any weight in a fall is the leg loop tie in point. The waist loop basically keeps you from flipping backwards. Most harnesses have a doubled over stitching on the end of their strap that would jam up in the buckle as it slid through. If the waist buckle did come completely undone, the climber is still attached by their leg loops. On top rope this means just grabbing the rope to keep balanced. On lead, this might mean flipping upside down if you took a fall. You would then most likely be caught by the leg loops. If you have ever seen a beginner put on a harness, it is in fact very easy to get tangled up and stuck in the leg loops. It would be a very unlucky climber that didn't double back their buckle, took a lead fall, had the waist come completely undone, flipped upside down, and slid out of the leg loops. I would tend to disagree. I saw a harness come nearly undone because the person didn't doubled back the waist buckle correctly. It was on a Tyrolean traverse set up about 100 feet up. The person ran off the cliff to gain speed for zipping across and jumped into the void. There wasn't much of a drop and the harness did not experience a huge force - nothing anywhere near what you would expect from even a short leader fall. When the person made it back to the cliff, the harness only had about 1 inch of webbing still looped in the buckle. The rest (maybe 7 or 8 inches) had slipped through. This person was a newbie climber. His harness had been checked earlier but no one did a pre-flight check on his gear before he lept. Turns out he had gone for a piss just before leaping off. He undid his harness and didn't double-back the waist buckle when he was done. It could have been really tragic.
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ianmeister89
Feb 10, 2011, 9:13 PM
Post #29 of 47
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Registered: Jun 19, 2009
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swaghole wrote: I would tend to disagree. I saw a harness come nearly undone because the person didn't doubled back the waist buckle correctly. It was on a Tyrolean traverse set up about 100 feet up. The person ran off the cliff to gain speed for zipping across and jumped into the void. There wasn't much of a drop and the harness did not experience a huge force - nothing anywhere near what you would expect from even a short leader fall. When the person made it back to the cliff, the harness only had about 1 inch of webbing still looped in the buckle. The rest (maybe 7 or 8 inches) had slipped through. This person was a newbie climber. His harness had been checked earlier but no one did a pre-flight check on his gear before he lept. Turns out he had gone for a piss just before leaping off. He undid his harness and didn't double-back the waist buckle when he was done. It could have been really tragic. At first I thought you were describing the opening scene to the movie "cliffhanger." -Ian
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swaghole
Feb 10, 2011, 9:25 PM
Post #30 of 47
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ianmeister89 wrote: At first I thought you were describing the opening scene to the movie "cliffhanger." -Ian Was that a Metolius harness in the movie?
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ianmeister89
Feb 10, 2011, 9:37 PM
Post #31 of 47
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Unfortunately, no. Do the safe-tech harnesses provide a system to prevent buckles from dissolving? -Ian
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hansundfritz
Feb 10, 2011, 9:48 PM
Post #32 of 47
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Registered: Sep 18, 2008
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Saw a bad accident once at Seneca (c. 1993), where the outing club instructor failed to double-back her own harness while top-roping. She cratered from about 40 feet but survived. Pretty extensive internal injuries. It can definitely happen.
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granite_grrl
Feb 10, 2011, 11:46 PM
Post #33 of 47
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Registered: Oct 25, 2002
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bearbreeder wrote: granite_grrl wrote: Climbing is not an activity that can be made idiot proof. Personally, I don't like the auto double back you find on too many harnesses, I think it's a pain in the ass to put on. BD even put the speed adjust buckles on their ice harness.....seriously, WTF? Also, it promotes people NOT to do a double check on themselves and their partner. its ease of use ... you still check the tie in and to make sure that the belt is tight ... its one less thing to screw up ... is there any evidence the self lock/adjust buckles promote carelessness? ... numbers please Seriously? Who do you think you are, JTfiveonetwo? I have about as many numbers as you do, but I have heard/had this conversation with people before starting up a climb: "you doubled back?" *eye roll* "hard not to be!" When you get this flippant response you have to wonder how seriously these people are taking things like harness double checks anymore.
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caughtinside
Feb 11, 2011, 1:17 AM
Post #34 of 47
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Registered: Jan 8, 2003
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THis non doubling back of harnesses is a major issue, and climbers are dying all the time out here. We are stacking the bodies up like cord wood. Send help! The number 2 killer is nose hooking.
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bearbreeder
Feb 11, 2011, 1:25 AM
Post #35 of 47
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Posts: 1960
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granite_grrl wrote: Seriously? Who do you think you are, JTfiveonetwo? I have about as many numbers as you do, but I have heard/had this conversation with people before starting up a climb: "you doubled back?" *eye roll* "hard not to be!" When you get this flippant response you have to wonder how seriously these people are taking things like harness double checks anymore. serously? ... lol you made a claim ... can you back it up? "Also, it promotes people NOT to do a double check on themselves and their partner." youve heard stories from some of the other members here that its happened ... is everyone dying from it? ... nope but if a simple device could help reduce the problem ... then its a good thing in my book or maybe everyone is making it up ... hmmmmm
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granite_grrl
Feb 11, 2011, 1:57 AM
Post #36 of 47
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bearbreeder wrote: granite_grrl wrote: Seriously? Who do you think you are, JTfiveonetwo? I have about as many numbers as you do, but I have heard/had this conversation with people before starting up a climb: "you doubled back?" *eye roll* "hard not to be!" When you get this flippant response you have to wonder how seriously these people are taking things like harness double checks anymore. serously? ... lol you made a claim ... can you back it up? "Also, it promotes people NOT to do a double check on themselves and their partner." youve heard stories from some of the other members here that its happened ... is everyone dying from it? ... nope but if a simple device could help reduce the problem ... then its a good thing in my book or maybe everyone is making it up ... hmmmmm Wow, you're a tool. Please see the post you quoted for my example of people not caring about harness checks. BTW - you think one starring all your posts will have any benefit for my climbing?
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ladyscarlett
Feb 11, 2011, 1:59 AM
Post #37 of 47
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Registered: Dec 17, 2008
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sp115 wrote: I have the R-320 and the self-locking (always doubled back) buckle is infintely better than the Petzl harness I had before it (Corax or Calidris). I'm curious, I have the Petzl Corax and it's always double backed. What features of your new harness make it better? On that note, I was outside having a chat on a ledge, and I had someone make a snide comment that my harness was a 'gym harness' and I was going to die...heh, some people make me chuckle. Cheers ls
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ianmeister89
Feb 11, 2011, 4:47 AM
Post #39 of 47
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Registered: Jun 19, 2009
Posts: 140
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Personally, I've found that the webbing used in the Arc'teryx harnesses is smoother and easier to adjust than harnesses from other models. Or maybe it's because the buckles create a larger radius for the webbing to wrap around. Either way, I think they're a little easier to handle. Whether or not it merits the 100% price increase, well that's another thing. -Ian
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sp115
Feb 11, 2011, 6:23 AM
Post #40 of 47
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ladyscarlett wrote: sp115 wrote: I have the R-320 and the self-locking (always doubled back) buckle is infintely better than the Petzl harness I had before it (Corax or Calidris). I'm curious, I have the Petzl Corax and it's always double backed. What features of your new harness make it better? On that note, I was outside having a chat on a ledge, and I had someone make a snide comment that my harness was a 'gym harness' and I was going to die...heh, some people make me chuckle. Cheers ls Actually, Ianmeister89 pretty much summed it up: it is just so much easier to adjust and to add to that, it feels like you have nothing on when you're wearing it edit - that just didn't sound right...
(This post was edited by sp115 on Feb 11, 2011, 12:55 PM)
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cmagee1
Feb 11, 2011, 7:27 AM
Post #41 of 47
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Registered: Jan 13, 2011
Posts: 175
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Chuck Norris doesn't double back his harness.
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philbox
Moderator
Feb 11, 2011, 9:32 PM
Post #42 of 47
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Registered: Jun 27, 2002
Posts: 13105
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I wear a second harness just in case I forgot to double back the first harness. I'm the redundancy nazi after all. Safety first. Can't be too careful you know. Seriously though, how hard can it be to develop those religious rituals of always always always finishing off what you started and not be distracted from running through everything you need to do before committing yourself to the rope. A bit of OCD always goes a long way towards not cratering from some of these stupid mistakes.
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airscape
Feb 14, 2011, 10:10 AM
Post #43 of 47
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Registered: Feb 26, 2001
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I gather from some of the responses that there are people prefering the non-speedbuckle <(Or what ever the name) harness. Why? It's faster to remove?? How many times a day do you remove your harness that it would make the slightest difference?
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sspssp
Feb 15, 2011, 12:06 AM
Post #44 of 47
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Registered: Jan 2, 2003
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I'm not sure it is so much not prefering. The main comment seems to be that if both types are in existence and somebody gets used to a model that is always doubled back, they may be more likely to forget to check their own harness if they switch to one that isn't always doubled back and/or they may not think to check their partners. I think it is a legitimate concern. On the other hand, I suspect the always doubled back harnesses will save llives/injuries in the short term and even more if some day all harnesses are like this. I have not shopped for harnesses for a while, but how many companies offer this feature? When I first saw it, the advertising copy said it was patented. I can understand a company trying to make money, but my first thought was that really sucks. Here is a great safety idea and we are going to prevent our competitors from being able to reduce accidents.
(This post was edited by sspssp on Feb 15, 2011, 12:06 AM)
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mr_rogers
Feb 15, 2011, 1:40 AM
Post #45 of 47
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Registered: Jun 9, 2006
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USnavy wrote: Have you ever seen someone completely fall out of their harness on a fall because the leg and waist loops pulled through the buckle? Yes. He was using the new-at-the-time petzl harness that "didn't need to be doubled back." I had been climbing for ~2 years, he had been climbing "for 10." I didn't really know him, he was a friend of a friend. I was about 19 and he was middle-aged. We were setting up a TR at a local ice area. I remarked that his buckle looked funny, he said it was fine, and I believed him. He leaned back to rap and as I recall the harness simply came undone. It was like unzipping a zipper. I reach out, grabbed him by the gore-tex, and pulled him back to me. We decided to walk back down to the base of the climb, rather than rap.
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boymeetsrock
Feb 15, 2011, 7:45 PM
Post #46 of 47
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Posts: 1709
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airscape wrote: I gather from some of the responses that there are people prefering the non-speedbuckle <(Or what ever the name) harness. Why? It's faster to remove?? How many times a day do you remove your harness that it would make the slightest difference? I prefer the non-speed buckle because I can completely remove the leg loops without taking off the harness. Mostly makes for easier pee breaks.
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bearbreeder
Feb 16, 2011, 2:38 AM
Post #47 of 47
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Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
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bahhhh .... just learn to aim ... weird how i can take apart the speed buckles on my dead bird ... yet no one else seems to be able to on their self adjusting harnesses ... maybe it really was worth all that money ...
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