While this seems like it wouldn't be an issue it usually comes up very often.

... ( Thumbs up, means off belay. Another Thumbs up means on belay).

Josh

8) If leader is visible, but because of distance, wind, roaring river or crashing waves, you can't hear each other, non-verbal signals are effective. ( Thumbs up, means off belay. Another Thumbs up means on belay).


Josh

Right!

This thread is hilarious! You can tell from the variety of suggestions that it's really chaotic. Of course it's an important topic, and a lot of folks have their "better" solutions.

But you know, all of this actually happens in real life, too. When-ever I go out with a group, all this stuff is always going around. Especially with a large climbing club, where a lot of the guys are not familiar with each other.

My own solution is, "go with the flow". I know, that's really wishy-washy. Sometimes it works, but sometimes I just try to keep my feet, and keep my head.

Right!

Haha! What you don't like my Fonzie method. All I say to that is "HEEEEEEEYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!"

Josh

"...it would be nice, if there were some universal AMGA signals or protocol for those instances. Especially on multi-pitches."

What happens when you can't see or hear one another? What difference does your fingers make?

Most of the time when I know I'm on belay the leader starts pulling up the rope, or if I tug it , they tug it, but what happens when I'm ready to climb no tug, can't hear or see one another? The last time it happened I was on a single pitch, can't see one another or hear one another.
So I try tugging, no tug back, so I wait, I yell, nothing,

Finally I look at the climb and figure hopefully I'll start climbing and I'll know by him pulling up the slack . Ok, lucky it worked, now I go a little further, and a piece is stuck, so I want hime to take, doesn't hear me, finally get it out.
I continue, cleaning, its a bad line climb, so I finish . Everything is fine.

Generally it is , however it would be nice, if there were some universal AMGA signals or protocol for those instances. Especially on multi-pitches.

... however it would be nice [when you can't hear each other], if there were some universal AMGA signals or protocol for those instances.

I'm partially deaf, so I like to use radios when communication may be difficult. Batteries fail, tugs get lost and sh** happens, but I can't imagine any scenario where I would take my climber off belay without knowing 100% that he was safe, and I expect the same of them. If contact is lost and the rope is fully drawn up, I've started climbing in a few minutes knowing that I might not be on belay, but that the leader is at worst simul-climbing. If the rope was not fully up, maybe after some huge delay without activity on the rope, I'd escape the belay.
I said "Belay On", I meant it. A few wasted minutes is a small price to pay.

TE

I've had this happen a couple of times on "out there" climbs with high winds and excess rope drag. In those cases I let the rope run through the belay device till my tie in knot was jammed against the device, dismantled the belay as quick as possible and started to climb. One case, I was actually on belay and the leader was anchored in. The other time, he had to find a belay higher up and was still climbing when I had started to simulclimb. The climbing for me was easy to a corner and so I tied knots every five feet behind the belay device as I climbed until I could see him around the corner. I then made an anchor at the corner, the rope was already through the belay device and he was soon back on belay with what rope I had left.

In this case, was this a regular partner with whom you'd simulclimbed in the past?

I've found myself in this position, but with no prior experience had no way of knowing how to handle it other than to climb up. The issue I had was that when I was at a place I felt I could set up another anchor with the rope I had left my partner was moving so fast, I had no time to set it up. Because my partner at the time was over a foot taller, his pace meant he was pulling me up the wall during our unplanned simulclimb. I feel like this wouldn't happened if we had more of a matched pace, which would come with more experience.

The scenario you've outlined is one that I've seen for myself, and my first instinct, but feel that the successful implementation requires a familiarity with one's partner.

Just curious as to what I need to achieve before I too can be confidently safe enough to go higher, harder, and longer...heh!

Cheers

ls

In this case, was this a regular partner with whom you'd simulclimbed in the past?

I've found myself in this position, but with no prior experience had no way of knowing how to handle it other than to climb up. The issue I had was that when I was at a place I felt I could set up another anchor with the rope I had left my partner was moving so fast, I had no time to set it up. Because my partner at the time was over a foot taller, his pace meant he was pulling me up the wall during our unplanned simulclimb. I feel like this wouldn't happened if we had more of a matched pace, which would come with more experience.

The scenario you've outlined is one that I've seen for myself, and my first instinct, but feel that the successful implementation requires a familiarity with one's partner.

Just curious as to what I need to achieve before I too can be confidently safe enough to go higher, harder, and longer...heh!

Cheers

ls

The further he climbed the rope drag was insane and I couldn't "read" the rope.

Bare with me, while I ramble and explain further...
In the situation I outlined above, the partner I had was someone I'd climbed with for a few years and our options of communication (verbal and rope-pulling) were out of the question. We were about three pitches into a 900 ft climb, out of sight and with difficult route finding.

The problem really is, in your case, that if you're moving the same speed and you're at the end of the rope you can't stop to set up a higher anchor and belay coz you don't actually have any rope to belay with. You're at the end.

Once he passed the corner he was still just within ear shot and by the rope movement I could tell he had placed a couple of pieces. I couldn't see them but I knew that once I got to the corner I could set up another anchor and pay out as much rope as I could collect on the way there. The further he climbed the rope drag was insane and I couldn't "read" the rope. It just kept inching up.

My plan was decided ahead of time, while belaying, and knowing that the rope was getting towards the end. So, knowing he was most likely not at a belay stance, I disassembled the belay and started to climb, with the belay device still attached to the rope and my tie-in knot jammed against it. While I climbed (it was relatively easier climbing) I pulled rope through the device and tied a few knots periodically in the rope below it before gaining the new anchor spot. When I got there I had a loop of around 30 feet to spare, with which to belay him further.

"Reading" what a leader is doing by feel through the rope is very much a distinct technical skill in belaying that you can learn over time. By keeping just the slightest breath of tension on the rope with with your non-brake hand fingers you should be able to maintain a continuous 'connection' with the leader. Over time you can learn to understand both what the state of an out-of-sight leader is at any moment and also 'divine' (by feel) their likely next intent. This is obviously much, much easier to learn if you climb with a steady partner, but if you pay attention over a period of years you'll begin to learn basic patterns of behavior common to most folks on lead. And don't kid yourself, learning this takes explicit and continuous focus and concentration; apply yourself and learn it while leaders are visible and you're in a position to associate what you feel with what you see for the day when you can't see (and it's another excellent reason to STFUAB).

Further on this subject and relative to ladyscarlett's experience, if you are the leader in this situation and you know you are going to force your belayer to simu-climb then you better do so with a sharp focus on the capabilities and pace of your belayer. I've seen too many instances where a leader was dragging some poor soul up a route in an involuntary simu-climb alternately jerking them up and leaving them wading in slack - don't be one of those assholes.

Bare with me, while I ramble and explain further...

Unexpected simul-climbing is not a sign of moral deficiency on the part of the leader. If one climbs on new routes in new areas that one is not familiar with, it will happen eventually. The leader and the belayer have to be competent enough to carefully work through the challenge.

Gratias et valete bene!
RobertusPunctumPacificus

In my opinion, there are some rules about leader responsibility. The leader gets to decide on the level of risk they are prepared to deal with, at least up to the point when the second's life is threatened by the leader's actions. But the leader does not get to make risk decisions for the second; everything the leader does must protect the second as much as is possible in the circumstances.

If the leader runs out of rope (something that should happen once in a blue moon) the leader has massively screwed up but still has the responsibility for the party's safety. This means that, if at all possible, the leader should climb down to an anchor, rather than forcing the second into a simulclimbing situation. (Unless of course the party has anticipated this outcome and agreed on the simulclimbing solution.)

If a better more experienced climber is leading a less experienced climber, someone who, say, wouldn't lead the pitch in question, then forcing the second to simul climb, a situation where the strongest climber should be in the second second position, is verging on immoral. The leader got themselves into this mess and should get themselves out of it without making the second take risks they never signed on for.

If simulclimbing happens, it is, frankly, a pretty clueless leader who allows his or her pace to outrun the second's, because now the security of the party depends on the solidity of the second. And if, as Lady Scarlett mentions, this is something that has happened more than once, I'd say a different climbing partner is urgently needed---whatever motivations one has for getting better shouldn't include compensating for a partner's dangerous incompetence.

Once upon a time I used the rope tug method to signal off belay, but I have found it too problematic.

I am generally in the go light and fast crowd (I'll climb alpine using only one strand of a double, simul-climb etc.), but the pulling the rope up through the belay device is not that big of deal if both climbers have good and quick rope management skills and you can pull the rope up fairly quickly.

If my partner and I can't hear, the leader sets up the anchor, puts the person on belay, and pulls the rope up through the belay device. The second feeds the rope up through the belay device (taking the belay device off right before the rope comes tight).

A bit of a pain. However, the big upside, no is ever off belay. The second can start climbing the moment the rope comes tight and in the worst case scenerio we are simul-climbing.

To make it easier for the climber on top, they can pull the rope up using a hip belay and not put the belay device on until they think it has come tight on the second. This of course depends on having confidence with a hip belay and maintaning the hip belay while putting the belay device on.