Mar 6, 2011, 2:23 PM
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Re: [Kartessa] Poll: Cinch or Grigri 2. You can only have one
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Kartessa wrote:
If you're using the grigri properly, and your rope isn't twisted to shit, then you shouldn't be having jerky issues.
Isn't a Grigri supposed to be foolproof? How exactly does one use a Grigri improperly? With no rope twist, pulling the lever slowly and firmly, I get some jerking when belaying heavy climbers. I've only used my Grigri, not anyone elses, so I don't know if my own Grigri might be the issue.
It's not a radical jerking, but noticeable. I don't have any issues using other belay devices. I don't have problems with lighter climbers either.
(This post was edited by phang_nga on Mar 6, 2011, 2:25 PM)
Mar 6, 2011, 4:10 PM
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Re: [phang_nga] Poll: Cinch or Grigri 2. You can only have one
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phang_nga wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
If you're using the grigri properly, and your rope isn't twisted to shit, then you shouldn't be having jerky issues.
Isn't a Grigri supposed to be foolproof? How exactly does one use a Grigri improperly? With no rope twist, pulling the lever slowly and firmly, I get some jerking when belaying heavy climbers. I've only used my Grigri, not anyone elses, so I don't know if my own Grigri might be the issue.
It's not a radical jerking, but noticeable. I don't have any issues using other belay devices. I don't have problems with lighter climbers either.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." --Douglas Adams
I believe it's been brought up that jerky lowering on a gri gri comes more from the quality of the rope than the person being lowered.
Mar 6, 2011, 4:22 PM
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Re: [jakedatc] Poll: Cinch or Grigri 2. You can only have one
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jakedatc wrote:
I believe it's been brought up that jerky lowering on a gri gri comes more from the quality of the rope than the person being lowered.
Less than a year old Beal and an almost new Maxim, same basic problem. The problem isn't apparent with lighter climbers. Again, it's not a big deal, just a bit annoying.
Mar 6, 2011, 6:49 PM
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Re: [phang_nga] Poll: Cinch or Grigri 2. You can only have one
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phang_nga wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
I believe it's been brought up that jerky lowering on a gri gri comes more from the quality of the rope than the person being lowered.
Less than a year old Beal and an almost new Maxim, same basic problem. The problem isn't apparent with lighter climbers. Again, it's not a big deal, just a bit annoying.
use a biner to redirect the rope through your leg loop and open the grigri more- you're basically jumping between locked off and open because you dont want to lower the climber any faster due to their weight. the additional friction provided by the biner will give you enough play in the grigri to open it past the 'jerky' point.
and yes, the grigri2 resolves this to a point, but sometimes an extra biner on the leg loop is still warranted if your partner is pushing the 150% of your weight threshold.
Mar 6, 2011, 9:06 PM
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Re: [vegastradguy] Poll: Cinch or Grigri 2. You can only have one
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vegastradguy wrote:
use a biner to redirect the rope through your leg loop and open the grigri more- you're basically jumping between locked off and open because you dont want to lower the climber any faster due to their weight. the additional friction provided by the biner will give you enough play in the grigri to open it past the 'jerky' point.
and yes, the grigri2 resolves this to a point, but sometimes an extra biner on the leg loop is still warranted if your partner is pushing the 150% of your weight threshold.
Thanks! Finally someone who isn't jumping straight into an insult by calling me or my belayer an incompetent belayer or giving me a quote about underestimating a fool.
Mar 6, 2011, 10:36 PM
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Re: [phang_nga] Poll: Cinch or Grigri 2. You can only have one
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phang_nga wrote:
vegastradguy wrote:
use a biner to redirect the rope through your leg loop and open the grigri more- you're basically jumping between locked off and open because you dont want to lower the climber any faster due to their weight. the additional friction provided by the biner will give you enough play in the grigri to open it past the 'jerky' point.
and yes, the grigri2 resolves this to a point, but sometimes an extra biner on the leg loop is still warranted if your partner is pushing the 150% of your weight threshold.
Thanks! Finally someone who isn't jumping straight into an insult by calling me or my belayer an incompetent belayer or giving me a quote about underestimating a fool.
I'll give that a try next time.
Peace...
you're the one calling an advanced belay device foolproof. just sayin'
Mar 6, 2011, 11:14 PM
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Re: [phang_nga] Poll: Cinch or Grigri 2. You can only have one
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phang_nga wrote:
vegastradguy wrote:
use a biner to redirect the rope through your leg loop and open the grigri more- you're basically jumping between locked off and open because you dont want to lower the climber any faster due to their weight. the additional friction provided by the biner will give you enough play in the grigri to open it past the 'jerky' point.
and yes, the grigri2 resolves this to a point, but sometimes an extra biner on the leg loop is still warranted if your partner is pushing the 150% of your weight threshold.
Thanks! Finally someone who isn't jumping straight into an insult by calling me or my belayer an incompetent belayer or giving me a quote about underestimating a fool.
I'll give that a try next time.
A competent belayer would have read and understood that in the Gri-gri instructions, or asked if they didn't understand.
Mar 7, 2011, 1:41 AM
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Re: [jakedatc] Poll: Cinch or Grigri 2. You can only have one
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jakedatc wrote:
you're the one calling an advanced belay device foolproof. just sayin'
Which, of course, means the next logical conclusion is to call me a fool if I'm having a slight problem with it.
I took a couple of years away from this forum because of the smartass comments and I'm sure a lot of people hesitate to ask questions for fear of catching shit. Why can't people posting comments simply give a mature informative response, just saying.
Isn't it odd that if I ask a question to a climber in a face-to-face encounter, I NEVER get a smartass reply, just saying.
Mar 7, 2011, 1:43 AM
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Re: [phang_nga] Poll: Cinch or Grigri 2. You can only have one
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phang_nga wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
you're the one calling an advanced belay device foolproof. just sayin'
Which, of course, means the next logical conclusion is to call me a fool if I'm having a slight problem with it.
I took a couple of years away from this forum because of the smartass comments and I'm sure a lot of people hesitate to ask questions for fear of catching shit. Why can't people posting comments simply give a mature informative response, just saying.
Isn't it odd that if I ask a question to a climber in a face-to-face encounter, I NEVER get a smartass reply, just saying.
Mar 7, 2011, 2:02 AM
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Re: [phang_nga] Poll: Cinch or Grigri 2. You can only have one
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phang_nga wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
If you're using the grigri properly, and your rope isn't twisted to shit, then you shouldn't be having jerky issues.
Isn't a Grigri supposed to be foolproof? How exactly does one use a Grigri improperly? With no rope twist, pulling the lever slowly and firmly, I get some jerking when belaying heavy climbers. I've only used my Grigri, not anyone elses, so I don't know if my own Grigri might be the issue.
It's not a radical jerking, but noticeable. I don't have any issues using other belay devices. I don't have problems with lighter climbers either.
Mar 7, 2011, 2:10 AM
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Re: [Khoi] Poll: Cinch or Grigri 2. You can only have one
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Khoi wrote:
phang_nga wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
If you're using the grigri properly, and your rope isn't twisted to shit, then you shouldn't be having jerky issues.
Isn't a Grigri supposed to be foolproof? How exactly does one use a Grigri improperly? With no rope twist, pulling the lever slowly and firmly, I get some jerking when belaying heavy climbers. I've only used my Grigri, not anyone elses, so I don't know if my own Grigri might be the issue.
It's not a radical jerking, but noticeable. I don't have any issues using other belay devices. I don't have problems with lighter climbers either.
I've never questioned your intelligence before.
But those two sentences . . . .
Right, so that makes you?
The Petzl site says "The GRIGRI 2 has a new design that allows excellent control during the descent." So it seems they recognize a possible problem with their first generation device.
Mar 7, 2011, 2:14 AM
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Re: [phang_nga] Poll: Cinch or Grigri 2. You can only have one
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phang_nga wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
you're the one calling an advanced belay device foolproof. just sayin'
Which, of course, means the next logical conclusion is to call me a fool if I'm having a slight problem with it.
I took a couple of years away from this forum because of the smartass comments and I'm sure a lot of people hesitate to ask questions for fear of catching shit. Why can't people posting comments simply give a mature informative response, just saying.
Isn't it odd that if I ask a question to a climber in a face-to-face encounter, I NEVER get a smartass reply, just saying.
Grow a pair and learn to deal. People have personalities, opinions and attitudes. If you're so thin-skinned to get all butthurt over some forum post, maybe you shouldn't be using the internet.
Mar 7, 2011, 2:42 AM
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Re: [phang_nga] Poll: Cinch or Grigri 2. You can only have one
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phang_nga wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
you're the one calling an advanced belay device foolproof. just sayin'
Which, of course, means the next logical conclusion is to call me a fool if I'm having a slight problem with it.
I took a couple of years away from this forum because of the smartass comments and I'm sure a lot of people hesitate to ask questions for fear of catching shit. Why can't people posting comments simply give a mature informative response, just saying.
Isn't it odd that if I ask a question to a climber in a face-to-face encounter, I NEVER get a smartass reply, just saying.
No, it means that you don't get that a gri gri is not a beginners tool despite gyms and noobies trying to pretend it is. It is not fool proof and the amount of accidents caused by people using it wrong prove that easily.
for the record i never said you were a fool.. i just said the gri gri isn't fool proof like you said.
Mar 7, 2011, 3:13 AM
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Re: [phang_nga] Poll: Cinch or Grigri 2. You can only have one
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phang_nga wrote:
The Petzl site says "The GRIGRI 2 has a new design that allows excellent control during the descent." So it seems they recognize a possible problem with their first generation device.
Not so much a problem as a recognition that rope diameters have gotten increasing thinner and they also realized that thinner ropes are harder to control- so the new device addresses these problems- with the pleasant side effect that the device is easier to use in general.
Mar 7, 2011, 3:16 AM
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Re: [vegastradguy] Poll: Cinch or Grigri 2. You can only have one
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vegastradguy wrote:
Not so much a problem as a recognition that rope diameters have gotten increasing thinner and they also realized that thinner ropes are harder to control- so the new device addresses these problems- with the pleasant side effect that the device is easier to use in general.
Am I correct in assuming that the new Grigri 2 also handles the larger sized ropes better too?
I think I'll get one either way. I think it's a neat piece of gear.
Mar 7, 2011, 3:22 AM
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Re: [phang_nga] Poll: Cinch or Grigri 2. You can only have one
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phang_nga wrote:
vegastradguy wrote:
Not so much a problem as a recognition that rope diameters have gotten increasing thinner and they also realized that thinner ropes are harder to control- so the new device addresses these problems- with the pleasant side effect that the device is easier to use in general.
Am I correct in assuming that the new Grigri 2 also handles the larger sized ropes better too?
I think I'll get one either way. I think it's a neat piece of gear.
Thanks...
for the most part, yes- up to at least 10.2mm, its just as good if not better. the really fat, squishy gym ropes, though...not so much- but more because of the squish, not the diameter.
Mar 7, 2011, 6:41 AM
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Re: [phang_nga] Poll: Cinch or Grigri 2. You can only have one
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phang_nga wrote:
Khoi wrote:
phang_nga wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
If you're using the grigri properly, and your rope isn't twisted to shit, then you shouldn't be having jerky issues.
Isn't a Grigri supposed to be foolproof? How exactly does one use a Grigri improperly? With no rope twist, pulling the lever slowly and firmly, I get some jerking when belaying heavy climbers. I've only used my Grigri, not anyone elses, so I don't know if my own Grigri might be the issue.
It's not a radical jerking, but noticeable. I don't have any issues using other belay devices. I don't have problems with lighter climbers either.
I've never questioned your intelligence before.
But those two sentences . . . .
Right, so that makes you?
Someone who realizes that thinking that a piece of climbing gear, especially a belay device, is "foolproof" makes one exponentially more likely to be, either directly or indirectly, involved in a climbing accident.
In reply to:
The Petzl site says "The GRIGRI 2 has a new design that allows excellent control during the descent." So it seems they recognize a possible problem with their first generation device.
They recognized an aspect that has room for improvement.
Mar 7, 2011, 11:48 AM
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Re: [shockabuku] Poll: Cinch or Grigri 2. You can only have one
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shockabuku wrote:
Why not an ATC? Cheaper, easier, lighter, arguably safer.
Arguably an incorrect statement and assumption. The atc, stitch plate, grigri, cinch whatever, are all sound devices. The only thing that is unsafe is the belayer. In competent hands, all of these devices are equally safe.
The new grigri is a big improvement over the first generation. I use fat statics with it and it feeds just fine. It also has much better control for lowering and feeding out rope for leading. As I said before, dirty old ropes just don't work that well with them. But still with in respectable parameters.
I can't compare the cinch since I haven't used one, but I'd just buy the new grigri.
Mar 7, 2011, 1:54 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Poll: Cinch or Grigri 2. You can only have one
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socalclimber wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
Why not an ATC? Cheaper, easier, lighter, arguably safer.
Arguably an incorrect statement and assumption. The atc, stitch plate, grigri, cinch whatever, are all sound devices. The only thing that is unsafe is the belayer. In competent hands, all of these devices are equally safe.
The new grigri is a big improvement over the first generation. I use fat statics with it and it feeds just fine. It also has much better control for lowering and feeding out rope for leading. As I said before, dirty old ropes just don't work that well with them. But still with in respectable parameters.
I can't compare the cinch since I haven't used one, but I'd just buy the new grigri.
Mar 7, 2011, 2:54 PM
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Re: [aprice00] Poll: Cinch or Grigri 2. You can only have one
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aprice00 wrote:
Ok so Im happy to say that I've made a decision. Ill be getting a Grigri 2 and only use it on the 9.8. I'll prob. use it from time to time on the fatty when being belayed by certain partners, but will limit this use.
Thanks to everyone that weighed in (even shoo). I appreciate your time and thoughts.
Heh, thanks.
In all seriousness, the single most common scenario with accidents involving dropped climbers is an inexperienced belayer using a grigri. There are countless threads here on RC.com discussing these incidents. This is common enough that you should SERIOUSLY reconsider the "give a noob a grigri" approach.
As has been mentioned, this is not an inherent issue with these devices. It is inherent of misplaced trust in both the so-called "auto locking" features of a complex device with an underqualified operator in a life-critical scenario.
Assisted locking belay devices, such as the cinch and grigri2, all have a number of so-called "failure modes." Unfortunately, many of them result from easy mistakes to make. For example, the three most relevant ones with the grigri (and the grigri2 for that matter) and pulling the lowering handle ("panic pull syndrome"), holding the cam down (if the belayer is paying out slack and doesn't release their thumb or hand from the cam when the climber falls), and grabbing the rope above the device (the cam may not catch if there isn't enough jerking force from the rope).
I urge you NOT to give in to the temptation to give your sketchy belayers assisted locking devices. You are not increasing your own safety, and are not doing your belayers any favors either. Don't replace competence with convenience and reliance on auto-anything.
Instead, take the time and practice your and your partners' skills using simple techniques (hint: tube-type belay device) in a more controlled environment. Everyone wins.
Edited to add: Oh, and I sure as hell would NEVER use an 11mm with a grigri. You will NOT be happy with the results.
(This post was edited by shoo on Mar 7, 2011, 3:01 PM)