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healyje
Feb 19, 2011, 12:23 AM
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Vegasclimber10 wrote: Thanks for your in depth and informative post! The opinion of whether it needs to be recreated or not is somewhat moot, however. Some people - including myself - like to see pictures and/or video to help create a clearer idea about how the device functions or does not function. In addition, I have received several messages about this device, and people having issues with it slipping in many situations when it shouldn't. Being as I do not have a bias for or against the device personally, I will still take the time to work with the device and create my own opinions based on that usage.
Taking responsibility for yourself in climbing is important, but never so much as in free lead roped-soloing. What works for me my or may not work for you. What is 'safe' for me may or may not be 'safe' for you. What device I like, you may think sucks.
Pictures and videos are fun for sure, but the only interesting research to be done on the device would really be understanding the plummet distance of the device by rope diameter / slickness / stiffness (in each diameter tested) on a free-hanging rappel when 'popping' out of a back-lock without the brake-hand side of rope secured as in this incident (i.e. something that should never happen).
And yes, I know of the 'concerns' some folks have expressed and my only comment would be the device is what it is and should be used accordingly with a clear understanding of what that means, entails, and indicates when used with ropes of varying diameters, slicknss, and stiffness. There is nothing 'wrong' with the design of the device - only poor or mis- understandings of it's mechanism, operation, and the obvious consequences of using various ropes in it for differing missions/purposes.
[ Note: I should add that when using the Eddy for roped soloing the careful pairing of it with a rope based on the three factors I listed above is both essential and critical to your survival. I've tried a lot of different ropes by have only found the following acceptable: a lightly used and slightly fuzzy Metolious 9.8 Monster, a brand new and supple Mammut 10.2 supersafe (the newer blue, not the older green ones), but have settled on the New England / Maxim Glider 9.9 as the ideal rope for my purposes (you may experience / choose differently). ]
(This post was edited by healyje on Feb 19, 2011, 12:55 AM)
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cacalderon
Feb 19, 2011, 12:47 AM
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Thanks for the posting. Lucky is an understatement.
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Vegasclimber10
Feb 19, 2011, 12:56 AM
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Totally get your point, heal.
My intention with this is to do it in as open a manner as possible. I will be using the accident device and rope, which were both new, and a used rope of the same diameter, as well as a smaller diameter rope.
In addition, I am going to use this device as a new device, i.e. I am going to read all the instructions on it, and make my analysis based on using the device both according to the written instructions and in the way it was used that lead to the accident.
Please keep in mind that you are a very strong proponent of the device. You have a fixed opinion and therefore you may not be open to issues regarding the device, as you seem to feel very strongly about the safety of the device.
I respect your opinion of the device and your use of it, but I will form my own opinions based on my experiences with the device and go from there. Your opinions have been taken into consideration, as have everyone else's.
Again, this thread is not an attack on the device and I get the impression that you are taking it as such to some extent. This thread is to report an accident that occurred, and is being tested and discussed so that the climbing community can take whatever knowledge they wish from the thread.
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healyje
Feb 19, 2011, 1:09 AM
Post #29 of 50
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Vegasclimber10 wrote: Please keep in mind that you are a very strong proponent of the device. You have a fixed opinion and therefore you may not be open to issues regarding the device...
You misunderstand - I am in no way 'a strong proponent of the device'; I am only a proponent of the device in the context of free lead roped-soloing as a better alternative to grigris (and only in my opinion, only for me), less big and clunky than the SP, and more reliable than the Soloist (again, only in my opinion, only for me). Beyond that I think it's heavy, with an awkward handle pull, and too wide of an attachment point.
But what I am a strong and ardent proponent of is understanding and accepting the physical and mechanical reality of any device you leave the ground with. Forget what it was 'made' for; forget what the instructions say; forget what people 'claim' about it - nothing matters once you leave the ground except that you properly understand the advantages, disadvantages, and operating limits of the device in any situation you might find yourself in with it. Nothing else matters, it is what it is - utilize the advantages of it in that context and avoid the consequences of its disadvantages - deal or don't. The rest is irrelevant.
Vegasclimber10 wrote: ...as you seem to feel very strongly about the safety of the device.
What 'I feel very strongly about' is that nothing is 'safe' in climbing - especially devices. Attaching the very notion of 'safety' or 'safeness' to a device is as misguided as it is common in climbing today. In fact I just wrote the editors of 'Climbing' decrying their use of the phrase 'safer' describing belay devices in the cover title of an article on the topic. Devices are not safe or dangerous, only our use and misuse of them is safe or unsafe, advised or ill-advised.
Take the grigri2 which is being deemed 'safer' by the various media - all that means is that a new generation of climbers will be dropping each other with a 'safer' device. Great progress no matter how you look at it. Bottomline is 'safety' in climbing is only an attribute of, and conveyed by, knowledge, experience, skill, and judgment - not devices.
You and I can form any opinion of the device we want but that won't alter what the device 'is' when you clip into it. The only message of consequence is deal with it as it is and misgauge that reality at your peril.
(This post was edited by healyje on Feb 19, 2011, 11:47 AM)
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jermeng
Feb 19, 2011, 7:42 AM
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notapplicable wrote: In reply to: The primary cause of the accident was that the climber failed to maintain control of the rope and utilize a backup. A backup should always be used when rappelling, especially when soloing. For all intents and purposes, "Never" and "Always" do not exist in climbing. At least not with respect to that type of thing. You'll do best to forget those notions now.
I agree with the inappropriate use of "always" in regard to using a backup while on rappel. I think it is a great practice and anyone that rappels should know how to set up and use a backup. Additionally, everyone should also know when it it best to use and not to use a backup.
I have heard of instances of canyoners drowning while on rappel or in a pool at the bottom of a rappel. Just this past weekend, a climber did drown mid-rappel in a waterfall.
On the flip side, I would say that "always" does stick well to things like double-passing your buckle on your harness (for the models that require it) and tying your shoes (hook-and-loop excluded). But I'm sure even those can be argued.
Eitherway, thanks for the write up, if nothing more it's another reminder that climbing is unsafe and requires proper knowledge, technique, gear, etc...
-Jeremy
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vegastradguy
Feb 19, 2011, 8:27 AM
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healyje wrote: Take the grigri2 which is being deemed 'safer' by the various media - all that means is that a new generation of climbers will be dropping each other with a 'safer' device.
actually, while i dont say it in my review of the device, i dont think the GriGri2 is safer than the original GriGri- i think its a better device overall, but I also expect to see more accidents with it, unfortunately- especially if people continue to use the old method of belaying with the device.
great post, btw- i agree with you, nothing is safe in climbing...that assumption by most of our peers is what scares me more than anything else these days when i see other climbers out there.
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JimTitt
Feb 21, 2011, 7:12 PM
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Nice description of how it works (or not, depending on ones view).
The panic handle has been a sort-of holy grail for the approval agancies and pundits for some time now and Iīve spent the last 2 years designing various ones, we have about 120 prototypes in a heap in the workshop!
Unless the thing is the size of a lunchbox and with more moving parts than a Swiss watch there have to be compromises somewhere, both with the anticipated loads and acceptable ropes.
Devices like the Eddy are supposed to cope with a large variety of ropes and are really designed for lowering a climber from a sport route and just about manage this acceptably, start abseiling especially with a good rack and the loads are getting too high for accurate control.
As you say, it is not a fault with the device, itīs just a limitation, Edelrid could have made it work perfectly for rapping with a heavyweight underneath but then lowering kiddies at the wall would have been unworkable.
We would like to make the ultimate small light and foolproof device that works with every rope and climber but it just doesnīt work, physics is against us and climbers just have to accept and work with the limitations of the equipment just as generations have done before us.
As an aside, rappelling with any of the lever/cam type devices a long way is to be done with caution, the tip of the cam gets brutally hot and starts damaging the rope, I have had steam coming off mine! The advice from Petzl has always been to open the cam fully and control speed with the braking hand for good reason.
Jim
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JasonsDrivingForce
Mar 1, 2011, 7:38 PM
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notapplicable wrote: In reply to: The primary cause of the accident was that the climber failed to maintain control of the rope and utilize a backup. A backup should always be used when rappelling, especially when soloing. For all intents and purposes, "Never" and "Always" do not exist in climbing. At least not with respect to that type of thing. You'll do best to forget those notions now.
Is there ever a time when a backup would be detrimental to the situation?
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IsayAutumn
Mar 1, 2011, 8:14 PM
Post #34 of 50
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: notapplicable wrote: In reply to: The primary cause of the accident was that the climber failed to maintain control of the rope and utilize a backup. A backup should always be used when rappelling, especially when soloing. For all intents and purposes, "Never" and "Always" do not exist in climbing. At least not with respect to that type of thing. You'll do best to forget those notions now. Is there ever a time when a backup would be detrimental to the situation?
In climbing, you should really never say words like "time," or "is." They do not exist in climbing.
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notapplicable
Mar 2, 2011, 2:37 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: notapplicable wrote: In reply to: The primary cause of the accident was that the climber failed to maintain control of the rope and utilize a backup. A backup should always be used when rappelling, especially when soloing. For all intents and purposes, "Never" and "Always" do not exist in climbing. At least not with respect to that type of thing. You'll do best to forget those notions now. Is there ever a time when a backup would be detrimental to the situation?
I suppose it would depend somewhat on how you define "detrimental". I can't really think of a situation where using a traditional style of backup would be likely to get you injured or killed but I also do not think they add much, if anything, in the way of a safety margin to most rappel scenarios.
I personally think they take extra time to set up and effort to use and consider them to be largely superlfuous, so to say that I should "always" use one conflicts with the tradition of and (I would argue) need for placing personal judgment and self reliance ahead of universal imperatives.
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notapplicable
Mar 2, 2011, 2:40 PM
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IsayAutumn wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: notapplicable wrote: In reply to: The primary cause of the accident was that the climber failed to maintain control of the rope and utilize a backup. A backup should always be used when rappelling, especially when soloing. For all intents and purposes, "Never" and "Always" do not exist in climbing. At least not with respect to that type of thing. You'll do best to forget those notions now. Is there ever a time when a backup would be detrimental to the situation? In climbing, you should really never say words like "time," or "is." They do not exist in climbing.
It depends on what your definition of the word is, is.
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bearbreeder
Mar 2, 2011, 10:58 PM
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i think its fair to say that some kind of "backup" should be used before going hands free ...
in this case a simple knot below the device would have prevented it and would have taken seconds to tie/untie .... or at minimum wrap the rope around the leg a few times ...
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Rmsyll2
Mar 10, 2011, 10:48 PM
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JimTitt wrote: rappelling with any of the lever/cam type devices a long way is to be done with caution, the tip of the cam gets brutally hot and starts damaging the rope....The advice from Petzl has always been to open the cam fully and control speed with the braking hand for good reason.
It seems that the full-open policy has resulted in many accidents, because of failure to actually control with the brake hand. A GG is not very different from an ATC etc. without the cam, but I do not lower with it open. I use both a careful setting of the handle, and then actually release the rope through a hand that is also guiding the rope off the front of the device rather than twisting to the side. Unless my hand gets too hot, the device does not either; and that hand is in brake position enough to do that too.
Fully opening the cam means you don't have a GG, or the backup it offers if easily and naturally released from conscious tension on the handle. If the op climber had used a GG, he could have let it lock in the one position it has for that, made any other adjustments desired, and simply lowered on as usual. Is there something about solo lead that prevents using a GG?
.
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vegastradguy
Mar 10, 2011, 11:26 PM
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drector wrote: In reply to: The advice from Petzl has always been to open the cam fully and control speed with the braking hand for good reason. I can't seem to hold myself very well with the cam open all the way. My brake hand is just not strong enough. Does anyone here every do that and how much do you weigh? Dave
that may have been okay advice considering the grigri's original rope specs- 10-11mm. I wouldnt dream of using this way on today's skinny lines, nor would i use the grigri2 this way on those lines either.
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JimTitt
Mar 11, 2011, 6:54 AM
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I canīt either, even on 10mm statics so donīt worry! I think, as has been noted, that that came from the early days with hairy 11mm ropes.
And perhaps a skinny rock athlete/product tester not well proportioned guy with a 20kg rucksack like me!
Iīve done a pull test of the Grigri to see what it was like if you threaded the rope the wrong way round, it was poor but probably enough for lowering someone but abseiling youīd want two hands on the rope and a few leg wraps as well. Iīve got to test something else this morning so I shall have a little play around.
Edit:-
Bit of a pain setting it up but holding the handle wide open I got a braking power ratio of 5,1:1 for a 10mm rope which is about the same as an ATC XP on low friction with a 9,5mm rope so basically not enough!
For sure you want to re-direct through a biner if the handle-open method is used as you only have one hand to hold the rope.
Jim
(This post was edited by JimTitt on Mar 11, 2011, 9:21 AM)
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mattm
Mar 11, 2011, 3:03 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: notapplicable wrote: In reply to: The primary cause of the accident was that the climber failed to maintain control of the rope and utilize a backup. A backup should always be used when rappelling, especially when soloing. For all intents and purposes, "Never" and "Always" do not exist in climbing. At least not with respect to that type of thing. You'll do best to forget those notions now. Is there ever a time when a backup would be detrimental to the situation?
Yes. When speed of decent is important to safety ie an approaching storm or impending darkness. Each situation is different and needs to be addressed "in the moment".
Joseph has a great post on here somewhere re: "natural" pilots vs "book" pilots. Worth the read.
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ClimbSoHigh
Mar 11, 2011, 8:08 PM
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In reply to: Not telling anyone where you are going is a serious fault when it comes to going outdoors by yourself. I'm glad he's ok.
You forget that if you don't tell anyone where you are going, and get injured in the back country, than you can get hollywood to make "A Triumphant True Story" and get rich on royalties. 
Back on topic, I'm glad he was OK.
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sp115
Mar 11, 2011, 8:27 PM
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ClimbSoHigh wrote: In reply to: Not telling anyone where you are going is a serious fault when it comes to going outdoors by yourself. I'm glad he's ok. You forget that if you don't tell anyone where you are going, and get injured in the back country, than you can get hollywood to make "A Triumphant True Story" and get rich on royalties. Back on topic, I'm glad he was OK.
I suppose someone* will now type - I'd give my right arm for an opportunity like that?
* Not that I would offer such juvenile humor.
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ClimbSoHigh
Mar 11, 2011, 8:55 PM
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Not a chance, I'd give all my money and potential fame to keep my limbs where they are.
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drector
Mar 11, 2011, 9:21 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: notapplicable wrote: In reply to: The primary cause of the accident was that the climber failed to maintain control of the rope and utilize a backup. A backup should always be used when rappelling, especially when soloing. For all intents and purposes, "Never" and "Always" do not exist in climbing. At least not with respect to that type of thing. You'll do best to forget those notions now. Is there ever a time when a backup would be detrimental to the situation?
Is an extra piece of equipment to worry about when it is providing no benefit a bad thing? After all, a person needs to screw up to get benefit from a backup knot on rappel. We don't backup lots of other things where screwing them up can cause death. For instance, we don't do any sort of backup for a tie-in knot or for a belay but people are screwing up those things and getting hurt way too often.
No one every condemns a belayer for not having a backup knot. The belayer who screws up is just condemned for letting go of the rope. Why is it different for a rappeller?
I don't drop people when I'm belaying and I don't drop people (me) when rappelling. Both are equally bad and both activities require the same amount of concentration and care.
Just thinking out loud here.
Dave
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Vegasclimber10
Mar 12, 2011, 7:22 AM
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All good points, and it does go to personal preference in many cases.
I rarely used a backup until I started doing multipitch. My hands aren't in the best shape to begin with, and long raps make them tired fairly quickly. I also find the backup useful when having to deal with getting to a stuck rope, or dealing with a rats nest when it happens.
In the end, for me, the benefits outweigh the issues I guess. My backup sits on my harness and doesn't get in the way or cause any problems. Taking the extra -30 seconds to toss an autoblock on hasn't been an issue yet either.
Glad to see people still discussing this, and my apologies for not being able to get out and play with the Eddy myself yet - been really busy at work and when I do get a day off I'm out climbing for me.
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billcoe_
Mar 23, 2011, 7:55 PM
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JimTitt wrote: The advice from Petzl has always been to open the cam fully and control speed with the braking hand for good reason
Holy crap, learn something new every day...thanks JimT! BTW, good words form HealyJ too, totally agree with them.
I can fully understand your buddy psyching out mid pitch. I had done 2 solo first ascents using the Eddy like in 2009, got a bit out of shape mentally, and then just shockingly had that psych out thing happen toprope soloing maybe 6 months back on a route I've probably done successfully a hundred times, including a ground up (gear) 2nd ascent @ 20 years ago. Shit happens, and it happens to everyone.
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jt512
Mar 24, 2011, 6:59 AM
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billcoe_ wrote: JimTitt wrote: The advice from Petzl has always been to open the cam fully and control speed with the braking hand for good reason Holy crap, learn something new every day...
That advice from Petzl was terrible, a recipe for dropping the climber; that is, assuming the belayer was actually so inept with the grigri that they could not instantly tell how dangerous that advice was.
Jay
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JimTitt
Mar 24, 2011, 7:52 AM
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I donīt know anyone who can do it this way either, just goes to show that slavishly reading and following the instructions isnīt always the best idea.
For longer abseils I put a (2) krab brake extended above the Grigri on a draw.
Jim
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