is the %-tage of deckers of the general climbing population increasing?
that said ive never seen anyone decking after the 2nd bolt or piece of gear... i dont consider falling on the first bolt and touching the ground with rope stretch "decking" ... not the way some climbs are bolted
I think for the old folks around here that this thread, while not entirely unexpected, is still fairly horrifying.
In 37 years of climbing I've known one person who's decked actually climbing and that was both someone I've known for that entire time and an incident that happened quite recently. It was also a situation where he wouldn't have fallen if he'd simply free-soloed it instead of dicking around rope-soloing a hard line with a low crux (always a bad idea for roped-soloing). Fortunately he recovered fine. Over that same period I've known two other climbers who died descending fourth class terrain on foot.
By and large, that this many of you have decked says a lot about the training and indoctrination - or the lack thereof - associated with climbing today. In general I would basically lay all this on the rapid introduction to climbing associated with gyms and sport climbing. You get up to speed on the movement faster then you develop the requisite experience and wherewithal that used to come from an extended mentoring period seconding experience [trad] leaders. I'm also guessing distractions associated with today's highly socialized climbing scene plays into this as well (as in the STFUAB factor).
That's not to say all of us old folk haven't had close calls, but actually decking? That was an extremely rare event and rarely one a person lived through from what I've seen and experienced over the years.
Times they are a'changing. Be careful out there...!
That could definitely be a factor. I've never taken anything beyond the introductory 15 minute belay lesson at a gym on my first day of climbing. I've never had a mentor, and don't even have any regular partners. The vast majority of my climbing has been done alone. The only significant addition to being self taught has been information gleaned from reading books or on climbing forums.
Well, 20 plus years of climbing, and I'm very happy to say I have not decked. Don't remember ever landing on a ledge either.
When I read these answers, two questions came to mind:
Who are the climbers in this RC community? relay, so many accident among such a small group. I was surprised that so many of the climbers here had decked.
With that question, I also asked myself, how do these climbers define decking? I really never defined it to myself, I just know I've never decked.
So, those who say yes, what is decking in your book?
It seems to me that I was spared much suffering in my accident, not the least of which in respect to not having another person involved to blame or doubt. The outpouring of support I have received and the relatively minor nature of my injuries in light of the danger of the situation have encouraged a deep sense of gratitude.
I have a four year old son and I have spent a lot of time trying to reconcile my passion for high risk pursuits like climbing and cycling, both of which have shown a clear potential to take my life and mobility, with my obligations as a father. I spent quite a while going over my options as I settled into the TR solo system I used, and it was not for lack of knowing it was a possibility that I chose not to use a second device or back up knots. I only recently got a helmet and still haven't used it except for when I am aid climbing.
I knowingly passed up a number of options to increase my safety that could have saved me, and so your attitude about killing yourself climbing reflecting on your choices (as I interpret your comment about being an idiot if you kill yourself climbing) definitely resonates with me. If I had died it would have certainly reflected on those decisions in ways I am not comfortable with.
After some reflection I have decided that I will be adding redundancy to my system, whether as a second device or back-up knots I haven't decided yet.
I don't get this. How were you spared suffering while you almost killed yourself ON YOUR OWN? I, personally, would be spared suffering if the accident wouldn't be my fault and I thus had someone to blame. Yours and my accident were totally alike in a way that we both fucked up and could have died.
Just on a personal note: The climber is responsible for the belayer chosen. I clearly chose the wrong belayer, and there were signs that should have made me realize that before the catastrophe. I am responsible for this accident, because I laid my life in the hands of the wrong man. I KNOW that there is always an inherent risk that even the best belayer will fuck up. I could accept this if my belayer had climbed with me for 20+ years and caught countless of falls in spectacular fashion. My belayer dropped me after 4 months of gym climbing in one of the few unannounced falls.
In a way, there is everything in this thread that you need to know about climbing these days. People let themselves lower by climbing beginners and "accept responsibility" (how very generous), people don't get my point that you're responsible for yourself and responsible for choosing a competent belayer. A post going along the lines that it wasn't my fault gets rated 5 stars, while people don't even know the background of my accident. Nobody listens to the old guys climbing 20+ years without dying although they have proven to know what climbing is about.
I don't get this. How were you spared suffering while you almost killed yourself ON YOUR OWN? I, personally, would be spared suffering if the accident wouldn't be my fault and I thus had someone to blame.
Since I haven't been dropped I may be speaking in ignorance, but it seems to me that when another person is involved there are a whole range of doubts and questions that cloud the situation and bring an emotional valence that I didn't have to deal with. For instance, I don't know how the cam ended up disengaged. Rather than having doubt in the back of my mind that my buddy may have almost killed me, eroding the trust and confidence of a friendship that is important to me, my mind is freer to break down the accident in a calculating way. In place of those doubts I feel only gratitude.
In contrast, I used to wake-board a lot and had a close call where a friend pulled me into a fast whip-turn that very nearly put me into the rocky dam that made up one side of the reservoir. It was enough to shake even a teenagers sense of invincibility and left me doubting both my friend and the activity I loved. Since I had to depend on another person who had shown themselves to be unreliable to do what I loved, I suffered the loss to both the trust in the friendship and the activity I loved.
If you think I am foolhardy for focusing my attention on the first line of defense while making choices that lead me closer to harms way and can't see the parallel in yourself then I would suggest you suffer from severe myopia.
Then I guess I must be myopic indeed. In my climbing career, I've had one time where I seriously fucked up, and had to watch the consequences unfold. I was, I think, suitably hard on myself for my choices. At no point did I think "well, everything I did was fine, I just should have done it better." Instead, from the instant I became aware that things might go south, through the event as it unfolded, and still as years passed, my thoughts were centered around fixing, changing, improving, and how to avoid even finding myself in that situation again.
But that's not my point. It's totally up to you to draw what lessons you see fit from your accident. We each have a different process we go through.
My point is simply that as you gather the input from folks who've come close here, remember to take into consideration the people who aren't here to answer, and the stories they might tell.
GO
I don't think milesenoell's response (as he phrased it, "to focus on the first line of defense") is any different from what we see when a belayer drops a climber. The fault in both cases is user error and no ones first response to a climber getting dropped is that we should all starting having our belays backedup. "Experienced" climbers drop people, or are themselves dropped much more often than TR solo rigs fail but you don't see two-man belay teams becoming the norm.
Instead, we focus on training, understanding proper gear function and checking and then re-checking the rig for proper setup. Which closely mirrors milesenoell's response to his accident.
I agree with both you and miles that since carelessness was the primary cause of this accident, considering how to improve attention to details should be a primary aim. Where I disagree with you (although, interestingly, not with miles) is that I think that it's worth looking deeper to consider if anything else in the system should be changed.
Oh, and in most situations, if a belayer drops the climber to the deck, I absolutely think the belayer should have a backup until both the flaw has been identified and proper belaying is consistent. Dropping a climber to the deck due to negligence or inattention is (or should be) a truly exceptional circumstance, causing the team to seriously re-think their systems. In this case, the team is one person. So looking to institute a backup in the form of tying knots, when this is actually the standard practice in self belaying, should be among the first considerations.
Cracklover, I think you are being a little harsh on the OP re "seeking validation." If anyone had a traumatic experience in any walk of life it is natural to ask peers whether they had such an experience and how they dealt with it.
I do take your point that in this case asking for responses necessarily gives a skewed sample, i.e. some who decked aren't here to comment. Here, the OP is still with us thankfully and he is seeking input from those in a similar situation. Full marks to him for seeking some input.
Note, the sample is also skewed because the surviving "deckers" most likely to post here are those that continued to climb, not those that gave it up. Most of the stories show that the "deckers" feel lucky to have survived, and some, but not all, show some soul searching on the point of what they could have done differently.
I wish the OP well and commend him on seeking input from others. If it is the right choice for him I hope he continues to be able to enjoy climbing (safely).
I would just like to raise the point, obvious though it may be, that there are those who are not on rc.com because they decked and died, or were so injured, either physically or emotionally, that they can no longer climb.
Those people deserve a voice. Though they cannot answer your question - it would be wise of you to take heed of them, too.
GO
So true. Remember Angela? Does she still climb? Reading her trip report made me dizzy and sweaty.
Cracklover, I think you are being a little harsh on the OP re "seeking validation." If anyone had a traumatic experience in any walk of life it is natural to ask peers whether they had such an experience and how they dealt with it.
I do take your point that in this case asking for responses necessarily gives a skewed sample, i.e. some who decked aren't here to comment. Here, the OP is still with us thankfully and he is seeking input from those in a similar situation. Full marks to him for seeking some input.
Note, the sample is also skewed because the surviving "deckers" most likely to post here are those that continued to climb, not those that gave it up. Most of the stories show that the "deckers" feel lucky to have survived, and some, but not all, show some soul searching on the point of what they could have done differently.
I wish the OP well and commend him on seeking input from others. If it is the right choice for him I hope he continues to be able to enjoy climbing (safely).
I think there is a larger "skewing" at work here besides those that have hit the ground and are not here to tell about it. I think that the many many people who have not decked are also less likely to contribute to the thread. After all, how interesting is it to post a non-story.
Cracklover, I think you are being a little harsh on the OP re "seeking validation." If anyone had a traumatic experience in any walk of life it is natural to ask peers whether they had such an experience and how they dealt with it.
Fair enough. If so, I'm sorry about that. My main issue really is not with the OP, but with those who feel the need to argue with me about giving voice to the voiceless.
No, I am not looking for validation. I am looking at system failures.
When my system failed it lead me to ask a lot of questions of myself about what contributed to the failure. It seems a natural next step to ask others.
That seems perfectly reasonable. The trouble is that the simple act of people here replying with their stories, because they're still climbing, creates the story that decking is just a part of climbing. A story that I vehemently disagree with.
Yes, the people here who've fallen have relevant stories to tell you. Maybe even the most relevant for you, personally. And further, those stories are worth hearing, and it's great to have this forum to discuss them.
But, in my opinion, only if those stories are balanced with the other side. The trouble is that those people who could make the strongest case for how decking is usually a one-time-and-your-dead-or-disabled kind of thing just aren't here to do so.
In reply to:
and in regard to this:
In reply to:
Then I guess I must be myopic indeed. In my climbing career, I've had one time where I seriously fucked up, and had to watch the consequences unfold. I was, I think, suitably hard on myself for my choices. At no point did I think "well, everything I did was fine, I just should have done it better." Instead, from the instant I became aware that things might go south, through the event as it unfolded, and still as years passed, my thoughts were centered around fixing, changing, improving, and how to avoid even finding myself in that situation again.
Yes, this is exactly the myopia I was referring to. If you fuck up again I'd hope that the thought would occur to you that despite your efforts to ensure safety you knowingly engaged in a completely unnecessary risk who's costs are paid in no small part by those around you.
What's your point? That climbing is a dangerous activity, and while it's fun, it's also deadly serious? I'm quite aware of that. I have zero delusions, and there are plenty of objectives I positively drool over, but I have put off year after year becaue I know I'm not ready, or don't have the right partner. Despite the fact that I'm a very conservative climber, I know that shit could still happen. All I can do is try to stack the dice as much as possible in my favor, be vigilant, and try to avoid unnecessary risks. And I have accepted those risks that remain. How is that myopic?
In reply to:
Overall I think it's kind of telling that people seem to be expecting this to be about me trying to garner sympathy and support. As I mentioned earlier, my head was largely spared the trauma that so many other climbers go through. My accident was not very severe and support has come at every turn, so I am really not seeking support here. I am seeking the perspective borne of experience as I re-evaluate my approach to climbing.
I can totally appreciate that.
In reply to:
PS--Normally I resonate quite a bit with your posts Gabe, but your recent tone is surprising to me. I am a bit suspicious that you are reading something into my posts that relates to your own experiences rather than mine.
Perhaps. I've known people who didn't get a second chance. One fuck up, and that was it. So my problem isn't with you, per se. It's with the potential that your thread has to tell an overly rosy story. I know that's not your intent, but look at the revulsion to this thread from some of the older climbers here.
I think info from people that have gone through the experiance and how/why they came back from it is likely more helpful to the OP (who obviously wants to keep climbing) than stories of those who have quit.
I'm sorry to belabor the point, but here's what he actually asked in his OP:
In reply to:
now I'm hoping to get some perspective. How many of you folks out there have decked for one reason or another, and what was that reason? How bad was it?
The responses are going to be rather one-sided, due to the obvious. So don't worry, he'll get plenty of "how I overcame adversity". And yet what he asked for was perspective. Not a word one usually associates with white-washing.
But perhaps you're right, and all the OP wants to hear is happy stories of recovery and redemption. In fact, feel free to encourage him to go back to carefree rope soloing with no backup systems, which seems to be his first instinct.
But something tells me that if those who cannot speak here could be heard... you'd sure get some perspective then. The OP got a second chance. Not everyone does. Food for thought.
GO
Do you really think he's into carefree rope soloing? You talk like this whole experience was nothing for him.
No, I don't. I'm sure the whole experience was quite frightening! Read my post above, again - what I'm saying is that if he's looking to put his fall into context, there is a broader context than just those who will respond here. Why do you have such a problem with that?
By and large, that this many of you have decked says a lot about the training and indoctrination - or the lack thereof - associated with climbing today. In general I would basically lay all this on the rapid introduction to climbing associated with gyms and sport climbing. You get up to speed on the movement faster then you develop the requisite experience and wherewithal that used to come from an extended mentoring period seconding experience [trad] leaders. I'm also guessing distractions associated with today's highly socialized climbing scene plays into this as well (as in the STFUAB factor).
That's not to say all of us old folk haven't had close calls, but actually decking? That was an extremely rare event and rarely one a person lived through from what I've seen and experienced over the years.
Times they are a'changing. Be careful out there...!
I think another part of the equation is the 'sanitation' of the sport. Climbing is considered by many to be a safe(er) sport these days due to the improvements in equipment. The disconnect between users and manufactures contributes to this as well, IMOP. In your day (I'm not trying to call you old ) many climbers used homemade equipment or at least they were closer to the manufactures than we are today. Climbers inspected their own equipment more and knew how and why it functioned. Much of that is, again, lost on today's climbers.
I would wager that today's climbers are far less risk averse than the climbers of 20+ years ago. I would place the blame for this on increased security of equipment as well as the social aspect (improved medical care no doubt place a subliminal role also).
You are very right that in your day there was a mentor-ship and apprenticeship in the sport that, for the most part, no longer exists. In all too many cases today we see the blind leading the blind, or the blind leading themselves.
Blind leading themselves: That is what lead me to crater.
I am largely self taught. As I built my climbing skills my technical skills lagged behind a bit. My confidence, however, was not diminished.
One morning I decided to get in a couple of climbs before work. I decided to lead a climb that was at my limit despite not feeling completely 'on' that day. Strenuous climbing caused me to not think clearly and the result was poor protection. When I pealed I ripped two poor cam placements and decked from @ 20'.
The result was a dislocated shoulder and a severely bruised ego. It took me a long time to get back on the rock, and I have been taking it very slow ever since. I am much more careful about the objectives I choose, the partners I choose, and the gear and strategies I employ. Decking was a terrible experience that I am still embarrassed about over five years later. I do, however, believe that it was a much needed kick in the pants. That experience rides in the back of mind mind every time I climb and often when I am not climbing. I strive every day not to make a similar mistake of arrogance and ignorance.
The trouble is that the simple act of people here replying with their stories, because they're still climbing, creates the story that decking is just a part of climbing. A story that I vehemently disagree with.
I'd say, unfortunately, that the fact we'd get this many responses from people who have personally decked and are still climbing (as opposed to fatalities and folks who quit the sport) tells me that decking has somehow managed to become significant statistic in the sport and is indeed now "just a part of climbing".
It would be interesting to know (leaving freesoloers out of the equation) what percentage of people who put on a harness this year will end up decking - and what the indoor / outdoor split is.
(This post was edited by healyje on Apr 13, 2011, 7:16 PM)
By and large, that this many of you have decked says a lot about the training and indoctrination - or the lack thereof - associated with climbing today. In general I would basically lay all this on the rapid introduction to climbing associated with gyms and sport climbing. You get up to speed on the movement faster then you develop the requisite experience and wherewithal that used to come from an extended mentoring period seconding experience [trad] leaders.
Well stated! I agree completely. We have so many weekend accidents at the Gunks and I suspect that it's largely due to what you have aptly stated above.
To answer an earlier post, in my case decking was falling 30 feet from an overhanging route and hitting the ground without the rope slowing me at all.
These polls are obviously self-selecting. If you asked on rockclimbing.com how many of you had a serious accident on the interstate, that would be frightening also.
But if you include close calls, I think the number of "near misses" among experienced climbers is really high. My partner once realized, while he was being lowered, that his harness wasn't doubled back. He didn't deck. He sure could have.
I'm sure lots of climbers have been moments away from killing themselves on rappel (off the end of the rope, both ropes through the belay device, etc.), just like many drivers have "almost" had accidents that could have been fatal.
I'm sure that many people do rush from the gym to outside without proper training/appreciation for everything, especially if they get in trad.
But it doesn't matter how many years of experience you have or how careful you are, you can't eliminate human error and just because somebody makes an error doesn't automatically mean that they are any more or less likely than the next person.
If someone doesn't know the basics of belaying, that is a problem that can and should be fixed before they belay any more.
If someone overlooks something, misrigs an anchor or forgets to double back their harness, that is the crap that no system will ever eliminate. Yes, paying attention, good habbits, double checking your partner all help and all should be done, but I would suggest not kidding yourself.
Even a cautious, experienced driver can make a simple mistake like changing lanes into an oncoming car. That's life folks.
is the %-tage of deckers of the general climbing population increasing?
that said ive never seen anyone decking after the 2nd bolt or piece of gear... i dont consider falling on the first bolt and touching the ground with rope stretch "decking" ... not the way some climbs are bolted
Well I won't disagree that there are far more climbers these days, and that the increase in accidents is going to increase as well. Unfortunately I have witnessed more than my fair share of what the "new" climbing community is about. We now have tons of people pushing numbers way beyond their abilities. When I wander around the park I see leader after leader protecting a route, but clearly do not know how to properly protect a route. There's a huge difference between placing gear, and knowing when and where to place it.
There are so many basic skills the vast majority of climbers lack these days. Down climbing is one of them. When I first learned how to lead, down climbing was just something you learned how to do. It's not easy, it can be down right scary.
Climbers these days are pushing the envelope of their skills and abilities long before they are ready. That's why people are decking right and left.
There are so many basic skills the vast majority of climbers lack these days. Down climbing is one of them. When I first learned how to lead, down climbing was just something you learned how to do. It's not easy, it can be down right scary.
This is the #1 physical / movement skill that should be practiced as much as possible when in a gym by anyone contemplating leading trad. When I've taught basic climbing skills through a series of top ropes, any time someone couldn't make it up the next climb in the progression I'd have them go back and work on downclimbing the previous climb until they could downclimb it proficiently - they'd then invariably hike the one they previously failed on first try.
(This post was edited by healyje on Apr 15, 2011, 7:58 AM)
There are so many basic skills the vast majority of climbers lack these days. Down climbing is one of them. When I first learned how to lead, down climbing was just something you learned how to do. It's not easy, it can be down right scary.
This is the #1 physical / movement skill that should be practiced as much as possible when in a gym by anyone contemplating leading trad. When I've taught basic climbing skills through a series of top ropes, any time someone couldn't make it up the next climb in the progression I'd have them go back and work on downclimbing the previous climb until they could downclimb it proficiently - they'd then invariably hike the one they previously failed on first try.
I decked almost a year ago. ... Let go of the holds while my belayer didn't have proper control of the rope. ... My fault.
How's that your fault and not the belayer's?
Edit to add: In my understanding it's the belayer's job to always have control of the rope - the climber having control of the holds is not supposed to be necessary for safety.
+1
I was reading "My fault" and thought wtf?
3rded. Belayer not in control of the rope? Unless he had called off belay or something, the belay f*cked up. No two ways about it.
I've never really decked but I tapped the ground once. Sparsely populated rack left me with only one size that fit the crack which I placed to early. The crack was all sandy so I fell out of it pretty quick (15? maybe 20 feet, certainly not higher) and ripped my top piece (too small) and tapped the ground. Actually probably a good thing I fell there, as I duidn't have any other real pro options. I cruised it like 4 years later.
When I decked, it was maybe a 25-foot fall. I think the friction of rope pulling through the system slowed me a bit and kept me upright. I was very fortunate in my landing, and immediately aware that I could easily have died that day.
And my experience is absolutely a data point in Healyje's favor: The fall occurred because I didn't spend enough time training a new belayer before trusting her to catch unannounced lead falls. The fault is on me, not her, in that scenario, but at least it was a mistake I was lucky enough to survive and learn from.
61 /
40%
) many climbers used homemade equipment or at least they were closer to the manufactures than we are today. Climbers inspected their own equipment more and knew how and why it functioned. Much of that is, again, lost on today's climbers. 
