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Kstenson
Apr 20, 2011, 8:44 AM
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EDIT:
Thanks very much to everyone who has replied, but people seem to have the wrong idea of what I'm looking for so heres a simplified OP.
Could you please post below if you can the UIAA fall rating of a rope/s you have owned, its diameter and an estimate of the amount of falls you took on it before deeming it ready to be retired. If you could list your main area of climbing (e.g. Trad, Sport, Ice) that would be great to.
For the purpose of this thread, I would classify a fall as Factor 0.5 and above.
(This post was edited by Kstenson on Apr 20, 2011, 1:23 PM)
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USnavy
Apr 20, 2011, 10:13 AM
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Kstenson wrote: After spending hours looking over articles, reviews and writeups there seems to be no guide at all for rope purchasing noobs on how UIAA fall ratings roughly effect the number of 'normal falls' a climber can safely take on a rope. Before you flame my ass, this isn't meant to be scientific or statistically correct. I understand that a rope can be destroyed after one fall, and it is the strength not quantity of the falls that really matters. What I'm aiming for is a normative trend kind of thing from Climbers on this forum. So, could you please post below if you can the UIAA fall rating of a rope/s you have owned, its diameter and an estimate of the amount of falls you took on it before deeming it ready to be retired. If you could list your main area of climbing (e.g. Trad, Sport, Ice) that would be great to. For the purpose of this thread, I would classify a fall as Factor 0.5 and above.
Now granted you should not wait that long to retire a rope, but it makes it kind of obvious that you are pretty much never going to take so many falls on a rope that it actually breaks. If your falling on a rope on a regular basis the first thing that will happen is you will keep eating away at the sheath until you expose the core. The area that will see the most wear will be about at the 12 - 20 foot mark as thats the area that gets loaded over the biner on a lead fall. At that point I would hope you would either throw the rope away or cut the end off. But eventually over time the rope is going to swell up. If its say a 9.4mm, okay no big deal. But if its a 10.5mm its going to swell up so much its going to clog your belay device and make belaying hell, so your going to throw it away anyway.
You should be able to get about 75 - 150 real lead falls on each side of the rope before you get a core shot. But keep in mind thats an extremely generic number, you could get far less. The greater the diameter and proportion of sheath specification, the more lead falls the rope will be able to take before you get a core shot. Also, more expensive ropes normally last longer then cheapo's. If you get a good rope from a reputable brand its very likely going to last longer than some cheapo like the Edelweiss Ally 10.3mm.
If you want a rope thats good for working projects and will take a lot of abuse, choose a rope with a high proportion of sheath specification.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 20, 2011, 10:23 AM)
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viciado
Apr 20, 2011, 10:21 AM
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While it is difficult to use the search function on this site, there is a convenient place for your question. In the navigation banner, click on Articles and look for the "Dead Horse" section (seriously) where you will find, among others, this thread which responds to your basic question in the first page.
Regarding your specific question: The normative trend you will likely find is that "it depends." In general, a rope will not break under general conditions without outside factors such as chemical or physical compromise. When to retire the rope is pretty subjective, but manufacturers provide guidelines in the original documentation both for regular inspection and expected useful lifetime of the product.
I have used ropes of various brands ranging from 8mm doubles to an old 11mm. The 8's became a carpet when I felt they had become too tatty to use. That was after about 5 years of regular, but not daily use. The 11mm was used pretty heavily for three years before I decided it was too heavy. I still have it around and it looks and feels good, but would never use it to climb as it has passed the manufacturers "use by date" by 2 decades.
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Kstenson
Apr 20, 2011, 12:45 PM
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At what point did I look for a magical formula or to determine the exact number of falls?
I was simply looking for reports of peoples previous experiences, as I have no idea whether the range of falls is within the bounds of something like 30-40 or 100-150.
And I have to say, your reports on experiences was what I was looking for so thanks.
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Kstenson
Apr 20, 2011, 1:06 PM
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Thanks but to be honest, no thanks because the previous threads don't really answer my question.
I know how to inspect a rope and decide when it is ready to be retired or unsafe to use.
I was more interested in the average number of falls that users on this forum take on their ropes will take, as I'm currently trying to decide whether it is more economical to buy a rope or continue renting the high quality and cheap rentals at my gym.
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rtwilli4
Apr 20, 2011, 1:17 PM
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The fall rating is just a test they do so that they have a number to put the package. It only predicts how a rope will do in that specific test. I'm sure you know this already, but I think the test is an 80kg mass taking a fall at a factor of 1.7. That's probably not exactly correct but it's close. I'm willing to bet that less than .01% of climbing falls approach these forces.
Anyways, the only advice I can give you is to inspect your rope often, check out other climbers ropes and talk with them about their habits and thoughts.
If you take a lot of lead falls then there is a pretty good chance that you'll wear out the ends of the rope faster than the middle 50 meters. When you can start to see the core (or maybe just before it starts to show), cut the rope, burn the end, and keep using it. Keep doing this until the rope is too short or until the whole thing starts to feel dead, like a wet noodle.
If you TR a lot then you'll probably wear out the whole rope before you wear out the ends. In this case, the rope will start to feel soft, mushy, dead, and there won't be much stretch left to it. Have some one take a TR fall w/ a little bit of slack in the rope and see how it feels. You should be able to tell the difference between a new lively rope w/ some bounce and an old, worn, dead rope.
If you have sheath damage (core shot) then you have to cut the rope there. Maybe you'll have enough rope left to use, maybe not.
If you are TRing I wouldn't worry too much about anything other than sheath damage. In theory you could TR on just about any kind of rope... the forces are small.
Lead falls create more force so don't push your luck with a shitty rope.
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boymeetsrock
Apr 20, 2011, 1:42 PM
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Kstenson wrote: I was more interested in the average number of falls that users on this forum take on their ropes will take, as I'm currently trying to decide whether it is more economical to buy a rope or continue renting the high quality and cheap rentals at my gym.
You're comparing apples to oranges. You'd do better to estimate the number of days you would use a rope over the course of it's life. For example: Retire rope after three years, use the rope 30 days/ year.
(rental cost) x (30 days use) < or > (cost of new rope)
If the cost to rent the rope over its theoretical life is less then the cost to own the rope, then rent. If it costs more to rent then buy.
Trying to calculate something based on the number of falls is too complicated and the wrong way to look at this problem. You say you know when to retire your rope, so you should be able to figure out roughly how many days you are using a rope before you retire it. If not you have a couple of examples up thread. I personally retire a rope after @ 3 years of regular weekend use.
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mattm
Apr 20, 2011, 3:27 PM
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USnavy wrote: Kstenson wrote: After spending hours looking over articles, reviews and writeups there seems to be no guide at all for rope purchasing noobs on how UIAA fall ratings roughly effect the number of 'normal falls' a climber can safely take on a rope. Before you flame my ass, this isn't meant to be scientific or statistically correct. I understand that a rope can be destroyed after one fall, and it is the strength not quantity of the falls that really matters. What I'm aiming for is a normative trend kind of thing from Climbers on this forum. So, could you please post below if you can the UIAA fall rating of a rope/s you have owned, its diameter and an estimate of the amount of falls you took on it before deeming it ready to be retired. If you could list your main area of climbing (e.g. Trad, Sport, Ice) that would be great to. For the purpose of this thread, I would classify a fall as Factor 0.5 and above. No one can answer your quesiton, there is no way to determine how many factor .5 falls a rope can withstand based soly by using some magical formula that takes into account only how many UIAA falls the rope is rated for. I will tell you this.
While I don't believe there's any published data on a "Fall Factor Conversion Formula" there HAS been testing to indicate such a conversion would work. When the DAV did their testing of half ropes (to determine 5x55kg falls = about 1x80kg fall) such a "conversion" was used.
A thread over on MP chats about fall ratings in more depth.
http://www.mountainproject.com/...ckaging/107089786__1
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potreroed
Apr 20, 2011, 4:04 PM
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Just buy yourself a rope fer kripes sake.
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clc
Apr 21, 2011, 12:35 AM
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I didn't think people actually rented ropes. huh. That sounds nuts
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USnavy
Apr 21, 2011, 1:17 AM
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mattm wrote: USnavy wrote: Kstenson wrote: After spending hours looking over articles, reviews and writeups there seems to be no guide at all for rope purchasing noobs on how UIAA fall ratings roughly effect the number of 'normal falls' a climber can safely take on a rope. Before you flame my ass, this isn't meant to be scientific or statistically correct. I understand that a rope can be destroyed after one fall, and it is the strength not quantity of the falls that really matters. What I'm aiming for is a normative trend kind of thing from Climbers on this forum. So, could you please post below if you can the UIAA fall rating of a rope/s you have owned, its diameter and an estimate of the amount of falls you took on it before deeming it ready to be retired. If you could list your main area of climbing (e.g. Trad, Sport, Ice) that would be great to. For the purpose of this thread, I would classify a fall as Factor 0.5 and above. No one can answer your quesiton, there is no way to determine how many factor .5 falls a rope can withstand based soly by using some magical formula that takes into account only how many UIAA falls the rope is rated for. I will tell you this. While I don't believe there's any published data on a "Fall Factor Conversion Formula" there HAS been testing to indicate such a conversion would work. When the DAV did their testing of half ropes (to determine 5x55kg falls = about 1x80kg fall) such a "conversion" was used. A thread over on MP chats about fall ratings in more depth. http://www.mountainproject.com/...ckaging/107089786__1
Take twin ropes for example. Many climbers would say if you use two single ropes as a twin rope, you would double the impact force over that of just one rope. However thats very untrue. In the real world the increase is more along the lines of 15 - 40%. The reason being is that when you clip two ropes, the elasticity model of the rope changes.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 21, 2011, 1:23 AM)
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carabiner96
Apr 21, 2011, 1:20 AM
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USnavy wrote: mattm wrote: USnavy wrote: Kstenson wrote: After spending hours looking over articles, reviews and writeups there seems to be no guide at all for rope purchasing noobs on how UIAA fall ratings roughly effect the number of 'normal falls' a climber can safely take on a rope. Before you flame my ass, this isn't meant to be scientific or statistically correct. I understand that a rope can be destroyed after one fall, and it is the strength not quantity of the falls that really matters. What I'm aiming for is a normative trend kind of thing from Climbers on this forum. So, could you please post below if you can the UIAA fall rating of a rope/s you have owned, its diameter and an estimate of the amount of falls you took on it before deeming it ready to be retired. If you could list your main area of climbing (e.g. Trad, Sport, Ice) that would be great to. For the purpose of this thread, I would classify a fall as Factor 0.5 and above. No one can answer your quesiton, there is no way to determine how many factor .5 falls a rope can withstand based soly by using some magical formula that takes into account only how many UIAA falls the rope is rated for. I will tell you this. While I don't believe there's any published data on a "Fall Factor Conversion Formula" there HAS been testing to indicate such a conversion would work. When the DAV did their testing of half ropes (to determine 5x55kg falls = about 1x80kg fall) such a "conversion" was used. A thread over on MP chats about fall ratings in more depth. http://www.mountainproject.com/...ckaging/107089786__1there is one major problem. Ropes are too nonlinear to create a hypothesis of how many falls a rope can hold at one fall factor level based on how many it was able to withstand at another. The modules of elasticity is a rather complex model, its very nonlinear and changes with age, rope condition, weight, fall factor, and a ton of other variables. If the specifications of a dynamic were based on a linear model one could say something to the extent that a rope that can hold five factor two falls can hold ten factor one falls. But that's not how it works. A rope may be able to only withstand five factor two falls but it could hold 100 factor one falls and 25,000 factor .1 falls. |
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ptlong2
Apr 21, 2011, 1:27 AM
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clc wrote: I didn't think people actually rented ropes. huh. That sounds nuts
Why is it nuts? I've done it and under the circumstances I rented a climbing rope it made a whole lot more sense than buying one.
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ptlong2
Apr 21, 2011, 1:54 AM
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USnavy wrote: mattm wrote: While I don't believe there's any published data on a "Fall Factor Conversion Formula" there HAS been testing to indicate such a conversion would work. When the DAV did their testing of half ropes (to determine 5x55kg falls = about 1x80kg fall) such a "conversion" was used. A thread over on MP chats about fall ratings in more depth. http://www.mountainproject.com/...ckaging/107089786__1Accept there is one major problem. Ropes are too nonlinear to create a hypothesis of how many falls a rope can hold at one fall factor level based on how many it was able to withstand at another. The modules of elasticity is a rather complex model, its very nonlinear and changes with age, rope condition, weight, fall factor, and a ton of other variables. If the specifications of a dynamic were based on a linear model one could say something to the extent that a rope that can hold five factor two falls can hold ten factor one falls. But that's not how it works. A rope may be able to only withstand five factor two falls but it could hold 100 factor one falls and 25,000 factor .1 falls.
Why would you think that nonlinearity is a barrier to such a hypothesis? It's improbable that one could accurately predict the number of falls held at an arbitrary fall factor given only the number of UIAA falls held, for any rope. But for a specific rope this certainly could be determined. I wouldn't automatically discount the possibility that a set of rough estimates could be found, at least for classes of ropes.
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ptlong2
Apr 21, 2011, 1:57 AM
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USnavy wrote: Take twin ropes for example. Many climbers would say if you use two single ropes as a twin rope, you would double the impact force over that of just one rope. However thats very untrue. In the real world the increase is more along the lines of 15 - 40%. The reason being is that when you clip two ropes, the elasticity model of the rope changes.
When you clip two ropes the "elasticity model of the rope" doesn't change. For example, a simple spring model predicts a force increase of about 40%, not double.
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majid_sabet
Apr 21, 2011, 5:30 AM
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every fall is dangerous even in the safest environment with best rope so try not to fall. you take too many falls, you better start thinking about some other game.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Apr 21, 2011, 5:30 AM)
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jt512
Apr 21, 2011, 6:05 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: every fall is dangerous even in the safest environment with best rope so try not to fall. you take too many falls, you better start thinking about some other game.
Thank god there's no such thing as sport climbing.
Jay
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viciado
Apr 21, 2011, 8:11 AM
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With all due respect to what you are trying to accomplish... you have received several direct (and relevant) replies to your question. Your hours of research have turned up little to no relevant data for a good reason. Very few rock climbers keep that kind of record for the falls you indicate. It is a PITA to do so and is largely irrelevant for the various reasons that people have provided.
Buy the rope. It sounds like this is your first rope purchase, so take a look at the information on making such a purchase readily available on this site and most other rockclimbing sites.
Amazingly, you have not been flamed. Congratulations! Now, listen to what people are telling you and get a nice new rope of your own. You could provide the first set of data points to your own question. 
edited for spelling
(This post was edited by viciado on Apr 21, 2011, 8:13 AM)
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Kstenson
Apr 21, 2011, 8:26 AM
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To be honest, all I was really looking for in the first place was a general indication of the range, because I have no idea whether the rope I buy will be dead after 10 sessions in the climbing gym and around 30 falls or whether it will last me a year of going twice a week.
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viciado
Apr 21, 2011, 8:57 AM
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Not to add to the dead horse syndrome... Your rope should easily last three years plus with 2x a week at the gym (or most crags). That is based on the manufacturers' info and I believe will be supported by most users' experience as well.
This does not mean that running it over an abrasive or sharp edge will not result in a core shot first time out. There are no guarantees, but with care and maintenance, you should get plenty of "mileage" (meters?) out of most any rope... unless maybe it is a Zephyr. 
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shockabuku
Apr 21, 2011, 1:57 PM
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No, not really. I take many, many falls on my ropes, I don't count them, and can only pin the fall factor range into generally < 1.0. Probably most are .1<FF<.7. I'd imagine that I take 100-200 of those on a rope before I retire it but that's just a guess. If maybe 1/3 to 1/2 are FF .5 or greater that comes to 66-100.
I evaluate my rope for retirement based on damage, sheath slippage, fattening, feel(softening, stiffening up, etc.), not falls.
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cracklover
Apr 21, 2011, 2:18 PM
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Kstenson wrote: To be honest, all I was really looking for in the first place was a general indication of the range, because I have no idea whether the rope I buy will be dead after 10 sessions in the climbing gym and around 30 falls or whether it will last me a year of going twice a week.
Do you know what a fall factor is? Because you really do not want to be taking ANY > .5 fall factor falls in the gym.
The reason people are giving you a hard time is because your question is ridiculous. In 12 years climbing, I've retired roughly four ropes that have gotten worn out. In that time, I've probably taken only a few handfuls of falls that were > .3 FF, and only two that were > .5.
If you go around taking huge falls like that all the time, you better either be playing on massively overhanging rock, or else it won't be your rope that wears out, it'll be your broken body parts.
What wears out ropes is running over rough rock, and many small falls.
To answer the question you should have asked: "How long should I expect my rope to last, and is the UIAA number of falls a good predictor?" the answer is:
For a weekend warrior who is very active, and not afraid to fall, you'll probably get two or three years out of a typical rope. You could get as much as six or more. And no, # of UIAA falls is not a good predictor of how long your rope will last. A better predictor is sheath percent or rope thickness, both of which are usually published with the rope.
Cheers,
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Apr 21, 2011, 6:05 PM)
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tower_climber
Apr 21, 2011, 5:44 PM
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Kstenson wrote: I was more interested in the average number of falls that users on this forum take on their ropes will take, as I'm currently trying to decide whether it is more economical to buy a rope or continue renting the high quality and cheap rentals at my gym.
Keep in mind as well that if you buy a full-length climbing rope you'll get two gym ropes. I've only ever climbed at one gym whose walls were higher than 10 meters. A 60 meter rope cut in half would be fine for the majority of gyms out there. If your gym has lead routes longer than 40ish feet, a 70m rope cut in half will give you two usable gym lead ropes.
So I'm going to say buying is more economical. Buy a decent 60m rope, cut it in half and climb in the gym to your heart's content. When the first half wears out, retire it and use the second half.
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