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timpanogos
Dec 11, 2002, 4:39 AM
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Dr. one day I was talking about runners – you mentioned that I need “slings” not runners. I assume that for nailing I will need tie-off slings as well as some slightly longer keeper slings. Do you have any suggestions here (numbers, lengths, widths, how to rack so as not to drop etc.). Also, please tell me how you tie off if the pin is all the way in and you are clipping the eye (double binners, hero loop etc.).
I also assume that for clean aid – the concepts of walking gear are not much different than for trad. I have 4 double length sewn runners and 10 regular length sewn runners – as well as the 8 - 3” and 2 – 8” cheap QD’s. The 10 regular runners have 2 crabs on them – and I carry them tripled in the Alpine Draw fashion. – Doubles usually go around my neck/shoulder (and inevitably tangle). I also have individual (color coded) racking crabs for each cam (20).
This leaves me with 60 crabs for 10 regular, 4 double, 8 three-inch and 2 eight-inch runners or QD’s.
The other day, on clean pro – I dropped the regular runners and QD’s off the pro for clipping the rope – based on normal anti-walking practices. I did not keep exact count, but if each placement were 4’ apart it would have been around 26 moves – so I would have been 6 runner/biner pairs short if I had not been back cleaning .
Should I be handling my clean aid pro clips any differently than on trad (i.e. clipping straight to cam webbing instead of adding a runner or QD )
Any thoughts on being able to tweak my needed gear list to a bit more accurate count than “you can never have enough” Is there a way to figure the minimal “your screwed if you have less than this” number.
Thanks
Chad
P.S. That 26 moves was only a 35 meter pitch, I guess worse case would be 60 meters or 45 moves.
[ This Message was edited by: timpanogos on 2002-12-10 20:44 ]
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passthepitonspete
Dec 11, 2002, 4:15 PM
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I am glad to see you "get it".
The doc has taken note of your dilemma, and will be answering your query forthwith, and if not then fifthwidth.
There emphatically IS a Better Way to deal with "nylon" on the Big Wall.
The doctor is in, dude.
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lazide
Dec 13, 2002, 2:17 PM
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Damn Pete, its almost as stressful waiting for your articles as it is waiting to see the real MD's
(hopin' he sees the reply before he heads to j-tree)
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roscoclimber
Dec 31, 2002, 6:08 PM
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Doctor, Doctor. Where are you?
We're all still waiting for your reply.
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copperhead
Jan 1, 2003, 3:50 AM
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I am by no means an English scholar though I do have a few tips.
Slings and tie-offs
for wall climbing
---------------------
Slings:
Whether you use sewn or knotted slings/runners doesn’t really matter, though sewn is slightly stronger and knotted (water-knot) is good for leaving at rap stations. 4 – 5 double-length and 12 – 15 standard (over-the-shoulder) length runners should be enough. 9/16” or 11/16” supertape is lighter and less bulky than 1” webbing. I also carry 10 – 12, 9/16” supertape, medium-length (about 8” to 10” (once you tie them)) slings that are knotted. Spectra webbing is less water-absorbent than nylon webbing and must be sewn (too slippery for a water-knot). Nylon webbing is more dynamic (good) than spectra. [Spectra daisy chain = too static] Melt ends of webbing to avoid fraying.
Tie-offs:
A combination of both ½” tie-off webbing and 9/16” supertape works well for tying-off pins and the like. I try to use 9/16” as much as possible because it is stronger, though ½” is thinner and will fit into tighter constrictions. Clipping a pin directly with a biner often creates unnecessary torque forces on the biner because the biner does not have proper freedom of movement, due to the nature of the pin placement. In order to gain as much reach as possible, I will clip my aider/daisy-biner directly to the pin if the biner will sit ‘cleanly’ and be ‘happy.’ Keep biners ‘happy’ so they don’t break. If it is necessary to tie-off the eye of the pin in order to hang from it, use as short a tie-off as possible. Once you have committed to your next piece (above), you can tie-off or clip the pin accordingly. I tie-off 90% of the pins that I sink to the eye, by girth-hitching the eye of the pin with a 9/16” tie-off. This means that you only need to use one biner on the piece instead of two (you don’t want to clip a pin directly to the lead-line with one biner). Use medium-length 9/16” slings to tie-off the pin, or add extra slings/tie-offs by girth-hitching them to the original tie-off, to lengthen the runner and minimize rope drag (lead-line path) as needed.
If a pin cannot be sunk to the eye, you will want to tie-off the pin to minimize leverage. If possible, use 9/16” tie-offs; if clearance is small, use ½” tie-offs. A slip-knot, girth-hitch, or clove-hitch will work for this purpose; a slip-knot is less bulky because only one strand of webbing is wrapped around the shank of the pin. When nailing in corners, you will want to tie-off the pin before you place it, for obvious reasons. If the pin placement is dicey and you are worried about the piece blowing, girth-hitch a “keeper sling” to the eye of the pin to keep it from being talus booty if you whip and it pulls. Make sure that the length of the “keeper sling” is longer than the original tie-off to prevent loading the eye of the pin. Tie-offs will get thrashed, especially the ½” ones; retire as necessary. Bring 15 – 20, 9/16” supertape tie-offs (5” to 6” in length) and 20 – 25, ½” tie-offs (4” to 5”).
Note: Do not thread webbing directly through the loops of cable on heads, rivet hangers, etc. unless you don’t mind sacrificing strength or the piece is not worth using a biner on. Whipping onto a tied-off cabled piece can cause the cable to cut the webbing. Exception to this rule: when a penji/lower-out point consists of a fixed nut, head, or a rivet with a fixed rivet hanger. Do not clip a biner so that it pinches webbing between itself and another biner when weighted (especially your daisy); this will quickly wear through webbing.
Cordolettes:
I am not a big fan of them, but 20’ to 25’ of 6mm or 7mm perlon or 5.5mm Gemini (etc.) cord will work. Tie a double-fisherman in the perlon and a triple-fisherman in the Gemini cord. Quadruple-loop the cordolette and tie a fig-8 (with all strands) to streamline for racking. Others may have more ideas on this subject.
Screamers:
Gotta love ‘em. Pete has emphasized that Screamers are ETS and this is most definitely true. He has provided a wealth of info on their use; be sure to read what he has written. I have been told that due to the vibration involved during Screamer ‘rippage’, it is a good idea to use wire-gate biners in conjunction with Screamers.
Racking:
I rack slings and tie-offs on my harness gear loops on the left side of my harness, with the longer slings towards the back and tie-offs towards the front. Blue Water used to make a really big asymmetrical ‘D’ biner called a Viper; I use these because of their large racking capacity. Clip them to your gear loops with the gate-opening pointing outward and the wider part of the ‘D’ at the bottom. These biners (4 or 5 total) stay clipped to your harness; remove one piece (or more) of webbing at a time. Pre-set-up quick draws (or even sport draws (they look cool clipped to heads)) are nice on walls. I keep these separate from slings and tie-offs by racking them on my shoulder-gear-sling, along with free-biners. To recap: Front-to-back; biner # 1) ½” tie-offs, 2) 9/16” tie-offs, 3) medium-length slings, 4) shoulder-length slings, and 5) double-length slings. The double-length slings can ‘extend’ and cause a mess when racked this way; knot them up as I have described above for the cordolette, or pre-rig them with biners for quick use (i.e. free climbing). Except in the case that I just mentioned, keep free-biners separate from webbing when racking. You never know what combinations will be needed until you are confronted with each situation. The number of slings and tie-offs that I have suggested above is a general guideline; depending on the route, you may need fewer or more. Be sure to keep some of your webbing racked on the extra hardware rack (i.e. eggs in one basket). Don’t drop stuff.
I believe Ammon clips longer slings to the top of his shoulder-gear-sling and am sure Pete has a nifty set-up. No system is the best; it is a matter of personal preference. Use whatever system works for you. One of my favorite phrases: “Whatever works”
DISCLAIMER:
If you die, it is not my fault.
Now go out and have fun!
[ This Message was edited by: copperhead on 2002-12-31 21:35 ]
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apollodorus
Jan 1, 2003, 6:00 AM
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If you drive the pin all the way to the eye, you don't need to tie it off. You tie off a pin that is sticking out; the tie off is close to the rock to reduce the leverage you'd have on it if you clipped the eye.
You can use short slings on clean aid pieces because they are close together and the line is usually fairly straight. If you back clean and run it out, longer slings are better (this is very similar to trad pro).
I prefer to back clean and run out C1 cracks that have bomber pieces all the way up. That way, you can often pull the piece with your aider clipped to it and place it higher.
The ultimate scam is in cracks that don't vary much. All you do is crack jug by moving two pieces alternately, right foot, left foot, right foot, left foot. Every once in a while, drop in a piece below your lower jugging piece for pro. If the crack is uniform and wide enough (fist+), you can slide the pieces so they never leave the crack. That way, you always have two pieces of pro daisied to you and can really run it out.
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timpanogos
Jan 1, 2003, 7:26 AM
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Thanks Copperhead – your timing was perfect –I’ve been marking my gear (Cover Girl Jolted Jade #561), and set color taping my nuts today, and trying to make a final list of needed Clean Aid goodies to enable me to solo (or have needed gear for my sons and daughter to climb with me) Your list confirmed my basic thinking, which was:
Worst case 45 moves – assume 20 cams and 25 nuts.
Cams – 10 medium slings (I like your idea here)
10 regular slings
20 biners (all my cams have dedicated color coded biners)
Nuts - 12 QDs
13 slings
26 biners
anchors 12 biners (3 pro each on 2 cordalets x 2 belays)
Thus roughly, 30 regular or smaller runners/slings, 10 QD’s and about 57 free biners, with 5 double length slings thrown in for good measure should cover worst case for most anything, right???
Without the pins (clean aid), I’ve basically added 13 more slings, which you have covered with your tie-offs.
I’m also making the assumption here that you might have your aiders clipped right to the clean pro for more reach, but you can/would add a qd/sling to the pro when you clip the rope – is there anything wrong with this? Or as mentioned, you might just be placing fall protection separately from your aider pro, which you are simply sliding up.
BTW, why don’t you like cord-o-lets? I love them for trad, but I do rack them with their dedicated PP locker, which I can see might be a nuisance here (just use normally racked nylon/qds as needed for anchors) – but then again, always having a bit or cordage on your personal harness can be invaluable in emergency situations.
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bigwalling
Jan 1, 2003, 7:32 AM
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I almost always tie off my pins that are fully driven. Like Bryan said it save you biners. That is a big plus on long and hard pitches. Using 2 biners on a pin is just a plain waste.
I have used Pete's system of racking slings, clipping them to biners on my harness, and putting stuff over the shoulder. I have thought about putting them on my gear loop I added to the back of my wall rack. Yet I place my hooks, beaks, rurps back there. Putting slings back there with the hooks would cause cluster%@#$. I also put my heads on that sling. You have to find what works best for you. Be creative and think of new ideas. Thinking for yourself is very important along with creativity.
Keep your heads and other swaged wire things away from your slings. Lots of times the head will have some extra wire sticking out the end of the swage. This will catch on all your nylon! It gets frayed enough, no need to excelerate the process.
I have learned all this stuff in the little amount of aid I've done(compared to some of you guys!). Get out and do some climbing to see what works for you. You'll find out quickly what works well and what doesn't.
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bigwalling
Jan 1, 2003, 7:36 AM
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Chad, this might not be that important depending on how hard of climbing you are doing. But I'd bring screamers instead of all those quickdraws. Even on easy pitches, looking down and seeing a screamer is comforting.
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apollodorus
Jan 1, 2003, 7:46 AM
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Two crabs on a piton is not needed, usually. And if you tie it off, you need a keeper sling through the eye. Clipping it direct on a straight line pitch saves two slings.
Every placement situation is different, though, so all replies here are valid. The method you use depends on your particular placement.
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epic_ed
Jan 1, 2003, 7:48 AM
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"I tie-off 90% of the pins that I sink to the eye, by girth-hitching the eye of the pin with a 9/16†tie-off. This means that you only need to use one biner on the piece instead of two (you don’t want to clip a pin directly to the lead-line with one biner)."
Why not?
[ This Message was edited by: up2top on 2002-12-31 23:49 ]
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bigwalling
Jan 1, 2003, 7:52 AM
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Up2top,
It causes more rope drag in most cases.
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timpanogos
Jan 1, 2003, 8:49 AM
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Bigwall,
I was planning on buying 2 screamers for now - I'm only planing on doing up to C2 for the next while and assume this means I should always have enough solid 6kn+ type pro placements to keep me off the deck.
How many would you suggest I start out with?
Thanks
Chad
P.S. The note on noise/gate opening was interesting! But for me, most all of my biners are wire gates - lighter, stronger, wider - and now - screamer approved!
[ This Message was edited by: timpanogos on 2003-01-01 01:01 ]
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bigwalling
Jan 1, 2003, 9:33 PM
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Chad, 2 screamers should do you pretty well on C2. But if you have the money I'd buy four. Many A1/C1 pitches still contain not so good of gear. A C1-C2 pitch could have many small nuts or cam hook moves in a row. Or you could run into fixed heads.
I carry 12 screamers with me. I have 8 regular screamers and 4 screamer aids. I don't think this is enough for some of the stuff I'm planning on doing soon. I read that Pete says to use 2 screamer aids on heads. This makes alot of sense to me. But that means I can only use screamers on two heads. That is no good when I'm faced with 10 #1 and #2 head moves in a row.
So buy whatever you feel you need. I plan on buying more of both kinds of screamers for my rack.
Jake
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skloppen
Jan 2, 2003, 1:52 AM
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Copperhead wrote:
Quote:
Cordolettes:
I am not a big fan of them, but 20’ to 25’ of 6mm or 7mm perlon or 5.5mm Gemini (etc.) cord will work
I've heared that repeated tying/untying of Gemini cord significantly weakens it. If this is true, it's certianly not good for a cordalette.
from Stefan
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addiroids
Jan 2, 2003, 5:23 AM
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Stephen,
You never really untie a cordelette unless it is for rescue purposes, and even then, you can make an aider/prusik with it still tied. Maybe you need to clarify your post.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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twrock
Jan 2, 2003, 2:18 PM
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Cali Dirtbag, I think Stefan is referring to the repeated tying and untying necessary each time you tie the knot to bring together all the different "fingers" of the cordelette system, not the knot that creates the initial loop. But I don't have an answer to his question. I haven't heard that before.
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hishopper
Jan 2, 2003, 2:37 PM
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Hmmm... I would have thought that by now there would have been a better way posted...
Anxiously awaiting...
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gyngve
Jan 2, 2003, 3:17 PM
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Here's the info on cordalette materials:
http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/High_Strength_Cord.pdf
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skloppen
Jan 2, 2003, 3:54 PM
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I was referring to the knot that brings the fingers together.
The document Gyngve referenced indicates that after 1000 bending cycles, Gemini cord looses more than half it's strength (down to 2000LBS from 5000LBS).
But I suppose that 8kN is strong enough, so, Gemini cord is probably OK.
from Stefan
[edited to correct some blatant grammer errors]
[ This Message was edited by: skloppen on 2003-01-02 07:56 ]
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