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dmh5150
May 17, 2011, 10:32 PM
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Ok I've been climbing for a pretty long time doing mostly multipitch trad. I've always been on RC.com creepin for advice but didn't make an account till kinda recently, and now finally decided to ask everyone a question because I can't put my mind at ease about it.
So.....what is everyone's take on using 9/16 pmi webbing...tying a water knot with 2'' of slack on each side...and then making a trad draw out of it?
I've been doing this method for a long time mostly because it's really cheap and the guide that taught me to lead climb did it also (he was really old school). Most of the lengths I use are 48" that are tripled down so I can lengthen if necessary. I have taken lead falls and they've been great at holding me but nothing like beyond 10' wippers. I always check my knots and webbing before climbing for proper condition.
Am I just setting myself up for a 30' future fall that my "not sewn" nylon draws will just fail and drop me?
Should I just suck it up and buy sewn webbing like the rest of the world?
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crustyclimber
May 17, 2011, 11:11 PM
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Although there will no doubt follow a number of replies from people who are too young to have used them and who believe that using anything less than the latest kevlar thread bar-tacked, triple dyneema reenforced, commercially sewn slings is just plain nutty, you can confidently tie your own slings to any length, use them for the rest of your life, and live to a very old age. Just make sure you leave enough tail on your knots. Happy climbing.
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jt512
May 17, 2011, 11:26 PM
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dmh5150 wrote: So.....what is everyone's take on using 9/16 pmi webbing...tying a water knot with 2'' of slack on each side...and then making a trad draw out of it? I've been doing this method for a long time mostly because it's really cheap and the guide that taught me to lead climb did it also (he was really old school)
I think you have a lot of cheap, old-school, bulky, heavy quickdraws with knots that you have to continuously check.
Jay
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guangzhou
May 18, 2011, 12:21 AM
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A bit bulky, but nothing wrong from a safety point of view. Sometime I use slings when I sport climb, doesn't really matter to me.
One advantage of knotted slings on trad routes is you can untie them and use them for various things.
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cacalderon
May 18, 2011, 1:00 AM
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i've tied my own slings and i've never had any trouble.. its cheap and safe, if you know what you are doing
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spikeddem
May 18, 2011, 2:21 AM
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I agree with everyone--at least as far as safety is concerned. You'll have any given slings for 3-5 years probably. This is not really a good way to save money. Assuming you used them for four years, you're looking at $0.94 cents savings per month ([$50-$5]/48). Certainly, changing your driving, eating, drinking, or frivolous-spending habits would be a much more effective way to save money.
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the_climber
May 18, 2011, 5:33 AM
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Like the others have said, nothing wrong with it. I still use a mix of commercially make slings and tied webbing slings.
Learn how to tie the beer knot, and charge a beer to 2 to teach your climbing partners. Great knot, stong (or stronger than the water knot) and it can earn you beer.
Some will claim tied slings are bulky/heavy... if the weight of your slings holds you back, there might be greater issues with your climbing. At least that's my opinion.
But what do I know, I still use hip belays, figure 8's and stitch plates.
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gmggg
May 18, 2011, 1:35 PM
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guangzhou wrote: A bit bulky, but nothing wrong from a safety point of view. Sometime I use slings when I sport climb, doesn't really matter to me. One advantage of knotted slings on trad routes is you can untie them and use them for various things.
That might work if you tied the knot right before starting up the climb and you took no falls on the previous pitches. Not something I would count on...
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michael1245
May 18, 2011, 1:49 PM
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On sale, 3.99 biner
http://www.omegapac.com/product151.html
3.35, 3.65 dogbones
http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/quickdraw_slings.html
that's a $11.63 home made quickdraw...not too shabby.
even better...
http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3667037&cp=3677347.11360113.3688328
10.95
EVEN BETTER!
http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3667035&cp=3677347.11360113.3688328
13.95, on sale for 9.98
(This post was edited by michael1245 on May 18, 2011, 1:50 PM)
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jt512
May 18, 2011, 3:36 PM
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michael1245 wrote: On sale, 3.99 biner http://www.omegapac.com/product151.html 3.35, 3.65 dogbones http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/quickdraw_slings.html that's a $11.63 home made quickdraw...not too shabby. even better... http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3667037&cp=3677347.11360113.3688328 10.95 EVEN BETTER! http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3667035&cp=3677347.11360113.3688328 13.95, on sale for 9.98
Believe it or not, when it comes to buying equipment that your life depends on, there are actually factors to consider besides price.
Jay
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devkrev
May 18, 2011, 3:48 PM
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jt512 wrote: michael1245 wrote: On sale, 3.99 biner http://www.omegapac.com/product151.html 3.35, 3.65 dogbones http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/quickdraw_slings.html that's a $11.63 home made quickdraw...not too shabby. even better... http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3667037&cp=3677347.11360113.3688328 10.95 EVEN BETTER! http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3667035&cp=3677347.11360113.3688328 13.95, on sale for 9.98 Believe it or not, when it comes to buying equipment that your life depends on, there are actually factors to consider besides price. Jay
If the color matches my rope?
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michael1245
May 18, 2011, 3:58 PM
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jt512 wrote: michael1245 wrote: On sale, 3.99 biner http://www.omegapac.com/product151.html 3.35, 3.65 dogbones http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/quickdraw_slings.html that's a $11.63 home made quickdraw...not too shabby. even better... http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3667037&cp=3677347.11360113.3688328 10.95 EVEN BETTER! http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3667035&cp=3677347.11360113.3688328 13.95, on sale for 9.98 Believe it or not, when it comes to buying equipment that your life depends on, there are actually factors to consider besides price. Jay
The “25 kN closed/7 kN Open/8 kN Minor” rating on the Omega biners are pretty much the standard specs. And the draw slings are 22 kN.
And I’m actually using the Omega/Metolious “homemade” draws and they work just fine. Low cost, check. Functioning, check. What am I missing???
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bearbreeder
May 18, 2011, 4:03 PM
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michael1245 wrote: The “25 kN closed/7 kN Open/8 kN Minor” rating on the Omega biners are pretty much the standard specs. And the draw slings are 22 kN. And I’m actually using the Omega/Metolious “homemade” draws and they work just fine. Low cost, check. Functioning, check. What am I missing???
approved by you know who ... if you dont do things the way you know who says ... yr gunna die !!!
youll be fine ... just check the knots occasionally
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jt512
May 18, 2011, 4:42 PM
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michael1245 wrote: jt512 wrote: michael1245 wrote: On sale, 3.99 biner http://www.omegapac.com/product151.html 3.35, 3.65 dogbones http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/quickdraw_slings.html that's a $11.63 home made quickdraw...not too shabby. even better... http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3667037&cp=3677347.11360113.3688328 10.95 EVEN BETTER! http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3667035&cp=3677347.11360113.3688328 13.95, on sale for 9.98 Believe it or not, when it comes to buying equipment that your life depends on, there are actually factors to consider besides price. Jay The “25 kN closed/7 kN Open/8 kN Minor” rating on the Omega biners are pretty much the standard specs.
Standard? The biners on all of my draws have open-gate strength ratings of 9.5–10 kN.
Jay
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donald949
May 18, 2011, 4:57 PM
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michael1245 wrote: jt512 wrote: michael1245 wrote: On sale, 3.99 biner http://www.omegapac.com/product151.html 3.35, 3.65 dogbones http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/quickdraw_slings.html that's a $11.63 home made quickdraw...not too shabby. even better... http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3667037&cp=3677347.11360113.3688328 10.95 EVEN BETTER! http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3667035&cp=3677347.11360113.3688328 13.95, on sale for 9.98 Believe it or not, when it comes to buying equipment that your life depends on, there are actually factors to consider besides price. Jay The “25 kN closed/7 kN Open/8 kN Minor” rating on the Omega biners are pretty much the standard specs. And the draw slings are 22 kN. And I’m actually using the Omega/Metolious “homemade” draws and they work just fine. Low cost, check. Functioning, check. What am I missing???
Otherwise your "Homemade" draw looks good to me. But really your just assembling your own with OP biners and a sewn Metolious slings. At least that how I read your post. My QD's are Metolious wiregates. The BD Quicksilvers on sale for 9.98 looks pretty killer deal though.
The OP is actually tying his own slings from lengths of webbing. This is standard practice from years ago. I've done it, I still rack trad runners I've hand tied. They are a little longer than the standard 12". They are more like 14-15 inches. Yes they are bulkier. No your not going to die, if the knot is tied right, is tieght, and has the right tail length. But hey, I'm the only one that has to carry them. But when I retire them, I will probably go with pre sewn 12" trad runners.
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michael1245
May 18, 2011, 5:15 PM
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jt512 wrote: michael1245 wrote: jt512 wrote: michael1245 wrote: On sale, 3.99 biner http://www.omegapac.com/product151.html 3.35, 3.65 dogbones http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/quickdraw_slings.html that's a $11.63 home made quickdraw...not too shabby. even better... http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3667037&cp=3677347.11360113.3688328 10.95 EVEN BETTER! http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3667035&cp=3677347.11360113.3688328 13.95, on sale for 9.98 Believe it or not, when it comes to buying equipment that your life depends on, there are actually factors to consider besides price. Jay The “25 kN closed/7 kN Open/8 kN Minor” rating on the Omega biners are pretty much the standard specs. Standard? The biners on all of my draws have open-gate strength ratings of 9.5–10 kN. Jay
mine are better. and I'm sure you're buying them right now. you're welcome.
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sandstoned
May 18, 2011, 5:55 PM
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Well buddy, looks like you and your 'biners are above average, but you already knew that...
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jt512
May 18, 2011, 7:34 PM
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michael1245 wrote: jt512 wrote: michael1245 wrote: jt512 wrote: michael1245 wrote: On sale, 3.99 biner http://www.omegapac.com/product151.html 3.35, 3.65 dogbones http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/quickdraw_slings.html that's a $11.63 home made quickdraw...not too shabby. even better... http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3667037&cp=3677347.11360113.3688328 10.95 EVEN BETTER! http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3667035&cp=3677347.11360113.3688328 13.95, on sale for 9.98 Believe it or not, when it comes to buying equipment that your life depends on, there are actually factors to consider besides price. Jay The “25 kN closed/7 kN Open/8 kN Minor” rating on the Omega biners are pretty much the standard specs. Standard? The biners on all of my draws have open-gate strength ratings of 9.5–10 kN. Jay mine are better. and I'm sure you're buying them right now. you're welcome.
Grow up.
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ceebo
May 18, 2011, 8:03 PM
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jt512 wrote: michael1245 wrote: jt512 wrote: michael1245 wrote: jt512 wrote: michael1245 wrote: On sale, 3.99 biner http://www.omegapac.com/product151.html 3.35, 3.65 dogbones http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/quickdraw_slings.html that's a $11.63 home made quickdraw...not too shabby. even better... http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3667037&cp=3677347.11360113.3688328 10.95 EVEN BETTER! http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3667035&cp=3677347.11360113.3688328 13.95, on sale for 9.98 Believe it or not, when it comes to buying equipment that your life depends on, there are actually factors to consider besides price. Jay The “25 kN closed/7 kN Open/8 kN Minor” rating on the Omega biners are pretty much the standard specs. Standard? The biners on all of my draws have open-gate strength ratings of 9.5–10 kN. Jay mine are better. and I'm sure you're buying them right now. you're welcome. Grow up.
For a moment it looked like you were flexing about who had the best gear. Well who cares.. my dads bigger than yours.
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billcoe_
May 18, 2011, 8:16 PM
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You can help increase your margin of error by giving them the extra tail you note on the water knots, and soaking thoroughly in water and then loading them so that they snug up good and tight. Once they dry, they will be less inclined to untie. Still, as Jay mentions, keep an eye on them, as you know and say you already do.
As far as your question In reply to: Should I just suck it up and buy sewn webbing like the rest of the world?
Yes. The strength will increase, as will your safety margin. While I would imagine that the weight would decrease as well. BTW, I often bring a full length 1" tied tubular runner or 2 on long climbs where burning a runner to rap off of might occur. So don't toss them:-)
I don't see the strength rating on PMI 9/16 webbing http://shop.pmirope.com/...index.aspx?pageID=25, but the Bluewater 9/16 Climb spec rates to 2200 ft lbs brand new. http://www.mountaingear.com/...G/item/614001/N/1049. Assuming that the CMC Rope Rescue Manual which claims a 36% strength reduction for a water knot in webbing is accurate, you have a strength of 1408lbs when your tied webbing is brand new and dry. Stuff doesn't stay new long however, nor is it always dry it seems. A top rope fall can generate close to that. The Black Diamond Dynex in 10mm (so smaller than your 9/16 and with less material as your knots have a lot there) test at 4,946 lbf. Seems you can choose what you want to fall on. 4,946 or 1,408 flbs. You have chosen to use the lesser figure, while gaining no advantage in weight savings. I suspect that if you look at the price you pay in gas to get to the crag once, vs what it would cost to buy all new sewn runners.......
Maybe Jay can check my math up there.
For myself, since you asked our opinions, I have the lightest damn skinny slings made, and a few 1/2" sewn ones as well. I mark the date on them and replace as lead slings every 3 years. I think it would be false economy to do as you do. But these are choices we all make.
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michael1245
May 18, 2011, 8:33 PM
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ceebo wrote: For a moment it looked like you were flexing about who had the best gear. Well who cares.. my dads bigger than yours.
I agree, who cares.
but there's always somebody
And there’s nothing more annoying than somebody who is a know-it-all, always out to “one-up” you.
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jt512
May 18, 2011, 8:43 PM
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michael1245 wrote: ceebo wrote: For a moment it looked like you were flexing about who had the best gear. Well who cares.. my dads bigger than yours. I agree, who cares. but there's always somebody And there’s nothing more annoying than somebody who is a know-it-all, always out to “one-up” you.
Idiot.
*plonk*
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markc
May 18, 2011, 9:00 PM
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michael1245 wrote: ceebo wrote: For a moment it looked like you were flexing about who had the best gear. Well who cares.. my dads bigger than yours. I agree, who cares. but there's always somebody And there’s nothing more annoying than somebody who is a know-it-all, always out to “one-up” you.
Not to get too far off-track, but Jay's initial point holds true. For many things in life, "there are actually factors to consider besides price."
For some, money may be a limiting factor. You can put together your own quickdraws on the cheap, or tie your own slings as is the case with the OP. My first rack was built on the cheap. As money has permitted, I've upgraded cams, swapped out aged nylon slings for some of the new skinny slings, etc. Nothing is necessarily wrong with inexpensive gear, but for equipment you're getting a lot of use out of the benefit to spending a bit more can really be worth it.
If you disagree with the above, I suggest spending a day hanging in a harness like the Alpine Bod or Fudge. Then spend the day hanging in a harness with a bit of padding and an updated design.
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michael1245
May 18, 2011, 9:15 PM
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jt512 wrote: michael1245 wrote: ceebo wrote: For a moment it looked like you were flexing about who had the best gear. Well who cares.. my dads bigger than yours. I agree, who cares. but there's always somebody And there’s nothing more annoying than somebody who is a know-it-all, always out to “one-up” you. Idiot. *plonk*
I am far from being an idiot.
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