|
cjon3s
May 24, 2011, 9:40 PM
Post #1 of 29
(17377 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 8, 2009
Posts: 150
|
Alright, so I recently got into a debate with some folks over this.
For simplicity, just pretend it's setting up a top rope climb off of bolts using two draws.
The bolts also have rap rings or chain hanging off. I said always clips the bolt. I think it lessens the number of components in the system and is easier.
The other group contended that this was unsafe and that you should always clip the rings or chain. My thinking here is that they could be weakened from having the rope run through them constantly. Obviously, extreme wear would be evident and you wouldn't clip. But, nonetheless...
Are both of these methods safe or are there any unseen risks with either method?
|
|
|
|
|
kennoyce
May 24, 2011, 9:47 PM
Post #2 of 29
(17371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2001
Posts: 1338
|
they are both perfectly safe methods
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
May 24, 2011, 9:52 PM
Post #3 of 29
(17361 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
|
the chains can keep the angle between the draws lower ... and reduce the loading of the draws over an edge on certain anchors ...
also note that some bolts are spaced diagonally ... in this case clipping the chains or one of the chains can keep the draws at roughly the same height ...
nothing wrong with clipping bolt hangers if they are level and in a good position
|
|
|
|
|
redonkulus
May 25, 2011, 12:39 AM
Post #5 of 29
(17285 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 2, 2010
Posts: 216
|
Also consider if you have a person top-roping who will end up cleaning the draws. If the hangars only have one rap ring on each, and you have the draws clipped directly to the hangars, you will have to shuffle your girth hitched slings/PAS or whatever to somehow clip them to the hangars, so that you can thread the rope through the rings.
It's not a huge problem, it just makes things a little more difficult. If you clip the draws to the rings, then you get to the top, clip into the hangars, remove the draws, and thread the rings. Saves a bit of time and makes it less complicated (and potentially less dangerous).
|
|
|
|
|
potreroed
May 25, 2011, 6:22 AM
Post #6 of 29
(17237 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 30, 2001
Posts: 1454
|
Really makes no difference except in a very few situations where you might want the full extension of the chains--like bearbreeder mentioned.
|
|
|
|
|
gwyn
May 25, 2011, 7:05 AM
Post #7 of 29
(17217 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 8, 2005
Posts: 56
|
I prefer to clip the hanger for anchoring as it is less gear in the system meaning less fixed gear to check. That said, if clipping into the hangers makes the carabiners lie oddly, then it would be better to clip into the fixed ring/chain. For example, clipping in above the fixed ring/chain which causes the carabiner to load over "an edge" (the edge being the fixed gear) which could cause the carabiner to fail; yes, yes, one can mitigate this by clipping under the fixed gear but sometimes it still doesn't lie quite right and clipping into the ring/chain is best in that situation. Perhaps this situation is what worried your friends.
By the bye, I've seen fixed rappel chains/rings that might be fine for the forces generated on rappel but perhaps not so fine for top rope (with slack in the system) or lead anchors.
redonkulus wrote: If you clip the draws to the rings, then you get to the top, clip into the hangars, remove the draws, and thread the rings. Saves a bit of time and makes it less complicated (and potentially less dangerous).
It is possible to clip your personal anchor to the rings and thread the rope through the rings.
|
|
|
|
|
michael1245
May 25, 2011, 12:46 PM
Post #8 of 29
(17155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 23, 2010
Posts: 247
|
cjon3s wrote: Alright, so I recently got into a debate with some folks over this. For simplicity, just pretend it's setting up a top rope climb off of bolts using two draws. The bolts also have rap rings or chain hanging off. I said always clips the bolt. I think it lessens the number of components in the system and is easier. The other group contended that this was unsafe and that you should always clip the rings or chain. My thinking here is that they could be weakened from having the rope run through them constantly. Obviously, extreme wear would be evident and you wouldn't clip. But, nonetheless... Are both of these methods safe or are there any unseen risks with either method?
I clip the bolts.
Why? Someone who knows better than me once told me to. Since then, I've stuck with it.
|
|
|
|
|
lena_chita
Moderator
May 25, 2011, 3:29 PM
Post #9 of 29
(17088 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 6087
|
cjon3s wrote: Alright, so I recently got into a debate with some folks over this. For simplicity, just pretend it's setting up a top rope climb off of bolts using two draws. The bolts also have rap rings or chain hanging off. I said always clips the bolt. I think it lessens the number of components in the system and is easier. The other group contended that this was unsafe and that you should always clip the rings or chain. My thinking here is that they could be weakened from having the rope run through them constantly. Obviously, extreme wear would be evident and you wouldn't clip. But, nonetheless... Are both of these methods safe or are there any unseen risks with either method?
Neither method is inherently less safe than the other, the decision would be made based on other factors.
For example, in many cases clipping into the bolts would make the bottom 'biners of the anchor quickdraws lie against the rock and create the situation of rope rubbing against the rock, so it would be better to clip the chains, instead of the bolts.
I prefer to clip into the chains, but not into the last link of the chain, or into the rap ring, bc that way it is easier for the person who is eventually cleaning the route to put the bight of rope through the rap rings.
Edited for my attrocious typing skills.
(This post was edited by lena_chita on May 25, 2011, 5:23 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
cjon3s
May 25, 2011, 3:57 PM
Post #10 of 29
(17069 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 8, 2009
Posts: 150
|
Okay, cool. Thanks for all the responses everyone. 
|
|
|
|
|
redonkulus
May 25, 2011, 4:20 PM
Post #11 of 29
(17054 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 2, 2010
Posts: 216
|
gwyn wrote: It is possible to clip your personal anchor to the rings and thread the rope through the rings.
Yeah, it's just a little more crowded, and might be a bit confusing for a beginner. It's more of an inconvenience thing than anything else. Especially if you thread a bight through the rap rings like I do, rather than untying and just putting the end of the rope through.
|
|
|
|
|
gwyn
May 25, 2011, 4:57 PM
Post #12 of 29
(17029 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 8, 2005
Posts: 56
|
redonkulus wrote: gwyn wrote: It is possible to clip your personal anchor to the rings and thread the rope through the rings. Yeah, it's just a little more crowded, and might be a bit confusing for a beginner. It's more of an inconvenience thing than anything else. Especially if you thread a bight through the rap rings like I do, rather than untying and just putting the end of the rope through.
If you are threading a bight through then I assume you mean to be lowered and will tie in with the bight before untying the rope end. Is there need to secure yourself to the anchor since you'd remain on belay whilst you set up to be lowered? I thought that was the point of threading a bight of rope through the ring: to stay on belay the entire time. I typically rap or walk off or, better still, be the first one up and let someone else clean the anchors, so perhaps my assumption that you'd be lowered is wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
May 25, 2011, 7:47 PM
Post #13 of 29
(16981 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
gwyn wrote: redonkulus wrote: gwyn wrote: It is possible to clip your personal anchor to the rings and thread the rope through the rings. Yeah, it's just a little more crowded, and might be a bit confusing for a beginner. It's more of an inconvenience thing than anything else. Especially if you thread a bight through the rap rings like I do, rather than untying and just putting the end of the rope through. If you are threading a bight through then I assume you mean to be lowered and will tie in with the bight before untying the rope end. Is there need to secure yourself to the anchor since you'd remain on belay whilst you set up to be lowered?
You need to get your weight off the rope somehow. Gonna' be awfully tough to get that bight of rope through the anchors otherwise.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
redonkulus
May 25, 2011, 7:57 PM
Post #14 of 29
(16975 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 2, 2010
Posts: 216
|
jt512 wrote: gwyn wrote: redonkulus wrote: gwyn wrote: It is possible to clip your personal anchor to the rings and thread the rope through the rings. Yeah, it's just a little more crowded, and might be a bit confusing for a beginner. It's more of an inconvenience thing than anything else. Especially if you thread a bight through the rap rings like I do, rather than untying and just putting the end of the rope through. If you are threading a bight through then I assume you mean to be lowered and will tie in with the bight before untying the rope end. Is there need to secure yourself to the anchor since you'd remain on belay whilst you set up to be lowered? You need to get your weight off the rope somehow. Gonna' be awfully tough to get that bight of rope through the anchors otherwise. Jay
Right on.
|
|
|
|
|
gwyn
May 25, 2011, 8:57 PM
Post #15 of 29
(16942 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 8, 2005
Posts: 56
|
jt512 wrote: gwyn wrote: redonkulus wrote: gwyn wrote: It is possible to clip your personal anchor to the rings and thread the rope through the rings. Yeah, it's just a little more crowded, and might be a bit confusing for a beginner. It's more of an inconvenience thing than anything else. Especially if you thread a bight through the rap rings like I do, rather than untying and just putting the end of the rope through. If you are threading a bight through then I assume you mean to be lowered and will tie in with the bight before untying the rope end. Is there need to secure yourself to the anchor since you'd remain on belay whilst you set up to be lowered? You need to get your weight off the rope somehow. Gonna' be awfully tough to get that bight of rope through the anchors otherwise. Jay
Ah, good point. I had thought that I was missing something; thank you for pointing it out. Perhaps I'll try this method one day when cleaning an anchor, instead of rappelling.
|
|
|
|
|
sungam
May 26, 2011, 8:00 AM
Post #16 of 29
(16861 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26804
|
michael1245 wrote: I clip the bolts. Why? Someone who knows better than me once told me to. Since then, I've stuck with it.
|
|
|
|
|
superchuffer
May 26, 2011, 6:12 PM
Post #17 of 29
(16789 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2011
Posts: 294
|
sportclimbers have the silliest 'problems'
insert thread on which direction the gate should go..
....here
|
|
|
|
|
cjon3s
May 26, 2011, 6:17 PM
Post #18 of 29
(16786 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 8, 2009
Posts: 150
|
...it wasn't a problem. there was disagreement about whether something was safe or not and I wanted clarification.
|
|
|
|
|
essay
May 26, 2011, 7:42 PM
Post #19 of 29
(16753 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2011
Posts: 99
|
Yea, and this is probably the best place to get clarification on the subject of clmbing. I always take climbing advice from perfect strangers, how else would one get such well edited advice? In the future, why not just write responses on the wall and start throwing darts, it's proabaly safer than asking the illustrious folks at Rockclimbing.com
|
|
|
|
|
cjon3s
May 26, 2011, 7:50 PM
Post #20 of 29
(16745 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 8, 2009
Posts: 150
|
Advice is taken with a grain if salt. Asking for it doesn't mean I'll take it. I had my way of doing things that was safe.
Sorry that my asking for clarification offended you so bad. Good grief. Next time I'll grab the ol' dart board and get to it instead of asking on a cliimbing forum.
|
|
|
|
|
Toast_in_the_Machine
May 26, 2011, 9:38 PM
Post #21 of 29
(16706 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 5208
|
essay wrote: Yea, and this is probably the best place to get clarification on the subject of clmbing. I always take climbing advice from perfect strangers, how else would one get such well edited advice? In the future, why not just write responses on the wall and start throwing darts, it's proabaly safer than asking the illustrious folks at Rockclimbing.com
RC.com is the best place.
|
|
|
|
|
sungam
May 26, 2011, 9:53 PM
Post #22 of 29
(16699 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26804
|
What the hell? Did I get moderated? Seriously? Or did I just forget to post?
Anyways, I said you need a thicker skin. Just because two people gave you shit doesn't mean you should run away. Shrug it off and continue to form your own opinions with as much salty rc.com advice as you want.
|
|
|
|
|
cjon3s
May 26, 2011, 11:13 PM
Post #23 of 29
(16671 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 8, 2009
Posts: 150
|
Hah im not running away. Ill take everything as it comes. I hang out here a bit, but rarely ask questions. I know how to pick out the good from the bad or who I think I can trust.
|
|
|
|
|
moose_droppings
May 27, 2011, 1:00 AM
Post #24 of 29
(16645 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3371
|
It's easier to ask a dumb question than correct a dumb mistake.
I'm not saying the question was dumb either, just saying.
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
