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VertFlirt
May 25, 2011, 5:22 AM
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just wondering if others out have a signifigant gap between there hardest sport leads and trad leads.
sport im bout 11b-c trad 10a-b . been trad climbing for 3-4years, sport for 5-6 years. not really looking for advice, just wondering if others r in a similar sitch and what ur opinion, is that gap too big?
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rtwilli4
May 25, 2011, 10:55 AM
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My hardest sport on-sights were 11c-ish. My hardest trad on-sights were 11b-ish. Got introduced to climbing when I was a kid but have only really been climbing for 4 years or so.
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gblauer
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May 25, 2011, 12:27 PM
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I am a complete and total wimp. I would say it's two full grades for me.
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jacques
May 25, 2011, 1:44 PM
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VertFlirt wrote: just wondering if others out have a signifigant gap between there hardest sport leads and trad leads.
hardest lead means that a route of twenty feet can be done without a pro in sport or in trad.
It is hard to know our level. Is the climb over or under rate? Do I know the move or not? Is it easy to protect or no? I think that a climbing log of what you climb in a year is better to know your level, if you try to climb at your level with some good partner.
I don't like controversy!!! but I am always surprise that on sport and trad, onsight is good, red pointing is less good than onsight, but it is still good. climbing with one or two fall is a good try, but it is less good than red pointing
What is take?
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kachoong
May 25, 2011, 2:20 PM
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VertFlirt wrote: just wondering if others out have a signifigant gap between there hardest sport leads and trad leads. sport im bout 11b-c trad 10a-b . been trad climbing for 3-4years, sport for 5-6 years. not really looking for advice, just wondering if others r in a similar sitch and what ur opinion, is that gap too big?
Sounds about average, but it means either your head game isn't up to par with your strength/endurance or you need work on placing gear, if that's where you're losing endurance or not trusting your gear.
For me, onsight level it's about the same for both trad and sport as I trust my gear placements but lack actual strength. I also hate falling whether bolted or on gear. Redpoint gap is about one letter grade. Years ago, when I was at my strongest, the gap was about four or five letter grades, but I attributed that to not having complete confidence in my gear-placing ability or having to muck around too long to place it.
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VertFlirt
May 25, 2011, 2:26 PM
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rtwilli4 wrote: My hardest sport on-sights were 11c-ish. My hardest trad on-sights were 11b-ish.
good work man- does it make any diferance to your mental state if its a bolt or gear protecting ur moves?
any tips- comments on how you accomplished this narrow gap??
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VertFlirt
May 25, 2011, 2:32 PM
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jacques wrote: VertFlirt wrote: just wondering if others out have a signifigant gap between there hardest sport leads and trad leads. hardest lead means that a route of twenty feet can be done without a pro in sport or in trad. It is hard to know our level. Is the climb over or under rate? Do I know the move or not? Is it easy to protect or no? I think that a climbing log of what you climb in a year is better to know your level, if you try to climb at your level with some good partner. I don't like controversy!!! but I am always surprise that on sport and trad, onsight is good, red pointing is less good than onsight, but it is still good. climbing with one or two fall is a good try, but it is less good than red pointing What is take?
fair enoff, compare similar trad to similar sport routes. soft ratings to soft ratings. long routes to long routes. sandbags to sandbags. etc etc.. i do have a climbing log and noticed (many times) im much stonger on bolts. i do understand the differance between, bolt at your balls go for it vs runout trad, leader must mever fall or no falls zones. 1 confession, i have never fallen OR taken on gear
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superchuffer
May 25, 2011, 2:36 PM
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trad for life, no sport; therefore, no gap.
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rnevius
May 25, 2011, 3:28 PM
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superchuffer wrote: trad for life, no sport; therefore, no gap.
Isn't that as big as the gap gets?
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jo247
May 25, 2011, 4:10 PM
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gym : 5.11b/c
sport: 5.10 b/c
trad: 5.4 b/c
ahah ! just started to climb in trad, and I'm loooving it. crazy stuff !
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redonkulus
May 25, 2011, 4:25 PM
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Sport: 5.12b
Trad: 5.9
I've only climbed trad a couple times. I know, I need to get out there more and work on it...
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Mariofercol
May 25, 2011, 4:31 PM
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Sport 11b/c. Trad 5.9 barely. I started sport and trad at the same time. But the first time a tried a 10a on trad I went of route, climbed above my last piece a good distance to find no more placements, try to down climb and deck. I trust my placements but I cannot get the courage back to try harder stuff on trad. 
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cracklover
May 25, 2011, 4:36 PM
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Just passed the tenth anniversary of my first trad lead:
My hardest sport and trad onsight are the same: 12a.
(I have redpointed up to 12c sport, but only through projecting routes. I almost never project trad routes. So I can't compare redpoint levels.)
GO
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spikeddem
May 25, 2011, 4:45 PM
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Ditto to cracklover. I project sport routes and onsight trad routes.
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rtwilli4
May 25, 2011, 4:55 PM
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VertFlirt wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: My hardest sport on-sights were 11c-ish. My hardest trad on-sights were 11b-ish. good work man- does it make any diferance to your mental state if its a bolt or gear protecting ur moves? any tips- comments on how you accomplished this narrow gap??
Thanks.
For sure my mental state is different depending on where I'm climbing. There are days when I've said "I just want to relax and have fun today, let's go sport climbing." It's just a different attitude. You don't have to decide what gear you want, you don't spend much time organizing, and when you look up at a route you are ONLY looking at the climbing and not the pro options. I'd have to make a REALLY BIG mistake to even break a bone sport climbing.
But the routes I really want to do, the routes that I go to bed thinking about, are usually protected by gear. On days when I feel 100 percent, mentally prepared, clear headed, and ready to get a little scared (or maybe a lot scared) then I go for those routes. But the consequences of making the smallest mistake or not having my brain ready can be HUGE! Just placing one bad piece or even just falling at the wrong time can result in going splat! HELL YES my mental state is different.
But it's not different in a more scared way or a less psyched way. It's just different. I'm happy falling on my gear, and am slowly working towards treating my bomber placements as if they were bolts. Some of the hardest moves I've done on-sight have been 10 feet above a Yellow Alien, but I just knew that as long as my belayer didn't fuck up, I wasn't going to hit that ledge down there.
I am proud to have grown up in NC and I love the tradition there. It's very inspiring, and when climbing there I often find myself saying "fucking North Carolina!" But then I think "if those guys could to it, I can. I know I can do these moves, I'd be fine on a sport route of this grade, the gear is here, I know how to place it... so RYAN, FUCKING CLIMB!" Then I just do it.
A big milestone for me was a hard 5.9 that I fell on in the Adirondacks a few years ago. I fell on two different pieces on that pitch, one of which I just slammed into a crack, going on instinct and not thinking about the size 'cuz I was so pumped. My instincts were right, and that gave me a lot of confidence.
Be humble. There will always be gear placements that you miss... on EVERY ROUTE you climb. Don't ever think you know it all, always try to learn. The more you learn, the harder you will climb. And think of climbing as a life long process. If you keep yourself from getting fucked up, you'll be able to climb until you die, and probably just as hard as you do now, if not harder. Take your time, push yourself when you are ready, and your experiences will be better. Great experiences breed confidence and confidence helps you climb harder.
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crazy_fingers84
May 25, 2011, 5:11 PM
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hardest red point is within 2 letter grades, sport being the more difficult of the 2.
onsight is a full number grade different, again with sport being the more difficult of the 2.
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hafilax
May 25, 2011, 5:31 PM
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trad: 10c
sport: 10d
I foresee the sport grade going up faster than the trad. I have TR'd sport routes at much higher grades but struggle much more with crack technique which dominates the trad around here.
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caughtinside
May 25, 2011, 6:20 PM
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I'm basically down to no gap, maybe a letter. For a long time the gap was like 2 numbers but as I focused mostly on trad I kept creeping up there while my max sport stayed about the same. Maybe a little higher for some sport climbs I have redpointed. Now both seem to move up and down together as fitness fluctuates.
However, a higher end trad lead is still a more serious and engaging undertaking for me.
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aerili
May 25, 2011, 7:44 PM
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Mine are essentially the same. In fact, for onsight grade, I feel less comfortable on sport than trad currently.
I attribute this to no gym climbing and poor sport fitness right now, plus a really good head for gear routes.
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caughtinside
May 25, 2011, 8:05 PM
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cracklover wrote: caughtinside wrote: However, a higher end trad lead is still a more serious and engaging undertaking for me. For sure. And what's more, the grades I mentioned are only for short routes. At least for me, when it comes to big committing routes my gap increases significantly. My hardest trad climbs at eight pitches or more top out at only 5.9+/5.10-. Perhaps as I gain experience, that gap will also shrink*. But I don't think it will ever disappear like the gap for short routes has. GO *Mostly bolted trad routes like Levitation 29 notwithstanding.
That is a good point about long routes. I had single pitch cragging routes in mind when I posted. I drop my max difficulty down for sure for long stuff to stay in control, same for alpine.
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billcoe_
May 25, 2011, 8:30 PM
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This month, pretty common for me as I climb harder gear routes:
Hardest gear route 5.10d. Hardest sport 5.10a.
But I'm old.
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ceebo
May 25, 2011, 9:19 PM
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Sorry but this is not clear to me. I'm a noob trad climber but not totally clueless, their are blatantly different physical demand's. Take 1 route, for example.. it will be physically easiest done free solo or on top rope. Leading will require more isometric ability in forearms and trad will require even more than the previous. Looking at it purely from a physical perspective and very clinicaly, your trad level can not be the same as your sport unless some other factor (like your brain) is effecting the results.
Trad and sport being at the same grade is just as ludicrous as sport and top rope being at the same grade.. unless im totally missing something obvious here?. Ok maybe when we are talking about the best climbers in the world on the hardest possible routes.. i can accept that their grades will be very close as they are reaching the upper limits of whats humanly possible, at least as we perceive them in today's standards.
(This post was edited by ceebo on May 25, 2011, 9:21 PM)
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caughtinside
May 25, 2011, 9:24 PM
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ceebo wrote: Sorry but this is not clear to me. I'm a noob trad climber but not totally clueless, their are blatantly different physical demand's. Take 1 route, for example.. it will be physically easiest done free solo or on top rope. Leading will require more isometric ability in forearms and trad will require even more than the previous. Looking at it purely from a physical perspective and very clinicaly, your trad level can not be the same as your sport unless some other factor (like your brain) is effecting the results. Trad and sport being at the same grade is just as ludicrous as sport and top rope being at the same grade.. unless im totally missing something obvious here?. Ok maybe when we are talking about the best climbers in the world on the hardest possible routes.. i can accept that their grades will be very close as they are reaching the upper limits of whats humanly possible, at least as we perceive them in today's standards.
Great post. How could .10b ever be the same as .10b.
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