There was a near accident in my local gym a week ago. I was observing from afar, but asfar as I could tell, someone had failed to correctly clip their belay device. My guess is that they clipped just the carrying loop of the ATC instead of the the rope AND the carrying loop.
In situations like this--those that can be prevented by proper double checks before climbing--where does the fault lie?
My vote is for the #3, but I'm tempted to vote for #5--just to avoid such laid back attitudes when it comes to double checks.
I voted for number three, but I'm also torn between 3 and 5. I personally never EVER leave the ground or belay without at least looking at my partners buckles, locker and ATC. It takes less than 5 seconds to look and less than 10 seconds to go through a full verbal buddy check. Absolutely no reason not to.
If I were to be dropped because my belayer didn't put me on properly, I would probably have a few words for them but would ultimately take the blame. So I think I changed my mind. More climbers' fault than belayer.
"Fault" implies a mistake was made. Clearly, the belayer made a mistake.
The next question is "Is it a mistake for the climber to not check the belayers belay device, carabiner, harness, ground tie-in, sobriety and mental state, hand strength, and general physical fitness for belaying?"
If the brakes fail in your car, is it a mistake that you did not inspect the brake lines every time you are about to drive the car?
It seems like a matter of opinion as to how much fault lies with the climber, but then again, why does everyone insist on finding blame for someone else's accident? If you want to check your brake lines every time you drive, go ahead. It's up to you.
Dave
P.S. I would vote that the climber was partially responsible but not nearly as much as the belayer who screwed up their most important job, aside from actually belaying.
"Fault" implies a mistake was made. Clearly, the belayer made a mistake.
The next question is "Is it a mistake for the climber to not check the belayers belay device, carabiner, harness, ground tie-in, sobriety and mental state, hand strength, and general physical fitness for belaying?"
If the brakes fail in your car, is it a mistake that you did not inspect the brake lines every time you are about to drive the car?
It seems like a matter of opinion as to how much fault lies with the climber, but then again, why does everyone insist on finding blame for someone else's accident? If you want to check your brake lines every time you drive, go ahead. It's up to you.
Dave
P.S. I would vote that the climber was partially responsible but not nearly as much as the belayer who screwed up their most important job, aside from actually belaying.
I hate to speak in such generalities about something that I don't know that much about, but as far as I know, cars produced today have redundant systems (i.e., they accomplish the same thing as a double check). Plus the e-brake. And the Fred Flintstone method.
As for your first question: If there is any reason to doubt the belayer's ability to catch you (sobriety, hand strength, etc), then yes, you should most certainly look into it. Why wouldn't you?!
I voted 4 because first the belayer screwed up, then they screwed up again by not checking, then the climber screwed up by not checking, and then HOW THE FUCK WOULD YOU NOT NOTICE ONCE YOU STARTED BELAYING????
I mean, surely the feeding would feel weird, no? If you pulled the break end, wouldn't it just come out? how entirely too big for the plate was this rope that it didn't pop out on the first pull?
This is far from a near miss for TR. I have taught allot of people to belay and i always cover this error when doing so. I tell them it is dangerous just to drill in the importance of checks but really it is not that bad. The main reason i show them is that ''if'' it happens.. they need to take it as a reminder to do checks, especially if they later get into leading.
The rope will pull out of the device before the climber gets off the floor (yes tested multiple times). Something tells me any belayer with an IQ above 1 will tell the climber to stop.
On lead, this ''could'' be a dangerous error.. but the moons would have to align making you fall just after clipping the first bolt and 1 second before your partner realises the mistake. Even in that case.. the partner would instinctively hold tight on the rope. then it is just a matter of can they hold it or not?.
Even then, it would be very hard for the belayer not to notice this error on lead. Surely would have to give out or take in just a little slack before the climber sets off. But its both climbers fault tbh, if you don't value your life enough to check, you need a broken leg as a hard warning.
(This post was edited by ceebo on May 31, 2011, 11:45 PM)
I voted 4 because first the belayer screwed up, then they screwed up again by not checking, then the climber screwed up by not checking, and then HOW THE FUCK WOULD YOU NOT NOTICE ONCE YOU STARTED BELAYING????
I mean, surely the feeding would feel weird, no? If you pulled the break end, wouldn't it just come out? how entirely too big for the plate was this rope that it didn't pop out on the first pull?
Oops. You're correct. Now I recall thinking about that.
Regardless, I'm just talking about situations where someone fails to double check something on their belayer (locked gate, gri-gri threaded backwards, perhaps, knot in the end/belayer tied in for a full-length lower), and it ends up creating a dangerous situation.
#3. its simple to just give each other a once over. 5 seconds if that of your time to maintain a safe system. thats always first rule of thumb. double backed, belay loaded properly and locked and figure 8 tied right. not hard. maybe they should look at the trainers at the gym too. then again some people have no business climbing or belaying, because they just dont get it.
"Fault" implies a mistake was made. Clearly, the belayer made a mistake.
The next question is "Is it a mistake for the climber to not check the belayers belay device, carabiner, harness, ground tie-in, sobriety and mental state, hand strength, and general physical fitness for belaying?"
If the brakes fail in your car, is it a mistake that you did not inspect the brake lines every time you are about to drive the car?
It seems like a matter of opinion as to how much fault lies with the climber, but then again, why does everyone insist on finding blame for someone else's accident? If you want to check your brake lines every time you drive, go ahead. It's up to you.
Dave
P.S. I would vote that the climber was partially responsible but not nearly as much as the belayer who screwed up their most important job, aside from actually belaying.
I've got nothing against checking your partners climbing practices, vital signs, portfolios, and arrest records. Given the level of distraction, not only in gyms, but in popular climbing areas, and the continual march of technology that renders full belayer attention less and less critical, it has become a matter of self-preservation for the leader to make sure the belayer is actually set up to do their job.
But, to make proper belaying somehow partially the leader's responsibility is to diminish even more the fact that the belayer has to get it right. No matter who else did or did not check, failing to properly thread the belay device is first and last a belayer error, and shifting some of the blame to the leader can only create a psychological atmosphere in which such errors are more likely.
Just so no one gets me wrong here: the leader should check, but whether they do or not, it is the belayer's full and final responsibility to provide a competent belay.
(This post was edited by rgold on Jun 1, 2011, 4:18 PM)
In addition to rgold's insights, I was thinking about some of the belayer induced accidents (darkside, for one) we have seen recently. There seems to be an extremely relaxed attitude towards the responsibilities of the belayer.
Yes, the climber made a mistake, but the belayer failed to do their job.
I personally chose #5, mainly due to points expressed by rgold and others; the very distracting gym environment, which compromises the belayer's proficiency.
Why do I think it's more climber than belayer? The climber chose their belayer and accepted their level of competence. It's something we all do but in some circumstances fail to verify. In some cases we accept they know how because we met them through the innernet and they said they could belay. Other times they are part of the group of climbers at the crag/gym, friends of a friend, and our friend (a trusted belayer) said they could belay... etc etc. I've seen climbers do this all the time... an implicit level of trust? It should be an explicit level of trust!
As a climber you should do everything to exclude all doubt that every issue of safety (in the climber's control) has been double checked before leaving the ground. Once this has occurred the belayer has responsibilities to uphold.
I think the fault is shared. I voted equally because I'm not really sure how one can weight blame. To me, roped climbing is a team activity where both parties are engaged at all times. I don't necessarily double check my partner but I ask them if they have double checked. Complacency and distractions can get even the most methodical of people.
When I'm belaying I pay attention to the climber and try to feed information that I think is relevant to their safety (amount of rope left, ground fall potential, back clipping, rope behind leg, etc.). As a climber, I can only concentrate on the task at hand if I know for sure that the safety system is set up properly before leaving the ground.
But i agree; it was the belayers' job to belay and get the rope threaded correctly in the belay device. It is very wise for the climber to check that everything is correct backed up and threaded properly. But the belayer has a job of managing the rope and catching the climber when he/she falls. If the device is not used correctly than that belayer failed their job to keep the climber as safe as possible.
It is only the belayer's fault. The trouble with collective responsibility is it often means no one person actually assumed responsibility. Edit: And I tend to view the person actually doing the task as the persons responsible for it being done correctly.
That said, if I were the climber I might say "Dude, I'm sorry I didn't catch your mistake."
Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Jun 1, 2011, 4:27 PM)
belayer ... with climber at some fault for not checking
the reality is that most of us have climbed without double checking every time ...
anyone who claims they have never missed a double check is either a truly anal never make a mistake even when cold, wet, tired, 20 pitches up person ... or lying
just as its the climbers responsibility to tie in properly ... and the belayer double CHECKs it ... its the belayers responsibility to set up the belay properly ... for example you cant double check a belay setup if yr being belayed from above in a multipitch scenario
just as its the climbers responsibility to tie in properly ... and the belayer double CHECKs it ... its the belayers responsibility to set up the belay properly ... for example you cant double check a belay setup if yr being belayed from above in a multipitch scenario
Given the scenario this thread is talking about, and given all that Spike said about the scenario is true, it is the climber's responsibility to double check his belayer. No? He could have avoided the accident if he had checked the belay device... and checked it properly.
This is far from a near miss for TR. I have taught allot of people to belay and i always cover this error when doing so. I tell them it is dangerous just to drill in the importance of checks but really it is not that bad. The main reason i show them is that ''if'' it happens.. they need to take it as a reminder to do checks, especially if they later get into leading.
The rope will pull out of the device before the climber gets off the floor (yes tested multiple times). Something tells me any belayer with an IQ above 1 will tell the climber to stop.
On lead, this ''could'' be a dangerous error.. but the moons would have to align making you fall just after clipping the first bolt and 1 second before your partner realises the mistake. Even in that case.. the partner would instinctively hold tight on the rope. then it is just a matter of can they hold it or not?.
Even then, it would be very hard for the belayer not to notice this error on lead. Surely would have to give out or take in just a little slack before the climber sets off. But its both climbers fault tbh, if you don't value your life enough to check, you need a broken leg as a hard warning.
I think there is something that we don't know here. Simply failing to clip the rope and only clipping the keeper ring will become evident the first time the belayer tries to take slack or feed rope and it only takes a few seconds to fix. The climber shouldn't be at injury height by then unless they decided to skip the first clip or something and the belayer was spotting until the first clip.
Maybe the problem was that the rope got looped around the keeper wire similar to a fig 8. This would keep the rope from popping out.
(This post was edited by wwaltke on Jun 1, 2011, 5:14 PM)
we can talk about a million different scenarios ... but at the end of the day a belayer must be able to set up a belay correctly every time
a simple tug on the rope would have IDed the issue ...
checks are just that ... checks ... and the climber should definitely check
everyone on this forum except for a certain person has missed a double check at least once in their climbing lives
fault is a bad word ... its something we say as in "its not my fault!!!" ... mistake is more accurate, and the question is "how do we fix the mistake?"
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jun 1, 2011, 5:20 PM)
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